Thanks for the reply. Here is the best I can do to articulate my thoughts. 1) The AHJ is demanding an Auto Standpipe in the Parking Garage and I do not know why....but he told the owner that is what he required. 2) The PG has only 2 standpipes so no matter what the PG will flow a maximum of 750 gpm 3) The PG S/Ps are DRY so they will have to be separate systems to some degree, I was going to tie the FDC lines together and use one FDC 4) I do not understand the reference in NFPA #14 7.10.1.1 says "Fire Area" and the IBC references "Area" in the table I sent you. If that term does not apply to this situation, I would like to understand for future reference what it applies to. If it does apply, I think we are fine to separate the two.... 5) If the High Rise s/p's are Auto Wet and the Pg are Auto Dry, which they are in this case, what doe that do to interconnection, calcs etc? I have never ran into this situation before.
Greg Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Steve Leyton <[email protected]> wrote: > I've been out of my office for over a week, so apologies for not > acknowledging the calls for my expertise. I gotta say if it's come down to > me, you're all a lot more desperate than I thought ... > > I notice replies from others on this thread and I think I concur with > consensus. If these are two truly separated buildings (at least as > defined by code), are you proposing two separate standpipe systems? > Separate response addresses, separate FDC’s? Or is this going to be one > universal system. Any way you look at it, the parking structure isn’t > sprinklered and code would say that you need a Class III with 1,250 GPM > demand. The tower would be 750, so garage obviously more demanding. If > you’re proposing a single automatic water supply/single system > configuration, then I’d say it has to meet the 1,250, HOWEVER … > > Why is the garage required to be automatic. By definition and open > structure, even one taller than 75’ isn’t a high-rise. Code allows up to > 12 tiers without sprinklers if I recall correctly, so the “usual” rules > don’t necessarily apply. My guess is that manual dry is adequate – at > least per code. So my answer would be that you should look into a 1,250 > GPM manual-dry and a 750 GPM auto-wet for the tower (assuming only two > stairs). Is the AHJ or another stakeholder requiring auto-dry in the > garage? > > The foregoing is my opinion only and does not necessarily represent the > opinion or intent of the NFPA 14 Technical Committee on Standpipe and Hose > Systems. > > SML > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Richard > Matsuda > Sent: Monday, June 29, 2015 9:50 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: standpipes in fire separated building > > Greg,I believe the intent of NFPA-14 is to include flow from all the > standpipes within a building that the fire dept would connect to in a fire > emergency. If the floors in the parking garage do not communicate with > hallways and doors to the floors in the high-rise building, then the fire > dept will not connect to the standpipes in the parking garage to fight a > theoretical fire in the high-rise...and visa-versa.Just my opinion...Mr. > Leyton probably could answer this for you.rick matsuda > > > On Monday, June 29, 2015 10:06 AM, Greg McGahan < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > What about this section? > > A.7.10.1.1 If a water supply system supplies more than one building or > more than one fire area, the total supply can be calculated based on the > single building or fire area requiring the greatest number of standpipes. > For a discussion of use by the fire department of fire department > connections, see NFPA 13E <http://codesonline.nfpa.org/a/c.ref/NFC13E/book > > > , *Recommended Practice for Fire Department Operations in Properties > Protected by Sprinkler and Standpipe Systems*. > > Greg McGahan > Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > 1160 McKenzie Road > Cantonment, FL 32533 > 850-937-1850 > fax 850-937-1852 > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2015 at 8:01 AM, Pete Schwab <[email protected]> wrote: > > > If the piping supply is connected (common supply piping) then I would > > say you have to calculate until you reach 1250 GPM (since the garage > > is not sprinklered). > > > > 7.10.1.2.3* Common supply piping shall be calculated and sized to > > provide the required flow rate for all standpipes connected to such > > supply piping, with the total not to exceed the maximum flow demand in > > 7.10.1.1.5. > > > > A.7.10.1.2.3 Flow is added at nodes in a standpipe system in > > 250 gpm (946 L/min) increments without requiring additional flow, > > which might occur from higher pressures at that node (balancing the > > system). The common supply piping should be hydraulically calculated > > based on the required flow rate [500, 750, 1000, or 1250 gpm (1893, > > 2840, 3785, or > > 4732 L/min)] for the standpipe system. The calculated pressure for the > > standpipe system does not have to be balanced at the point of > > connection to the common supply piping. > > > > It should be noted that the above is my opinion. It has not been > > processed as a formal interpretation in accordance with the NFPA > > Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be > > considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA or > > its Committees. > > > > Peter Schwab > > VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies > > > > Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. > > 222 Capitol Court > > Ocoee, Fl 34761 > > > > Mobile: (407) 468-8248 > > Direct: (407) 877-5570 > > Fax: (407) 656-8026 > > > > www.waynefire.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Greg > > McGahan > > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2015 7:49 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: standpipes in fire separated building > > > > I will find out tomorrow but this is one lot so I presume it is a fire > > wall. The separation into two different buildings appears to not be > > necessary per the excerpt from 14. They appear to meet definition of > > fire AREA. At least that is indeed what I hope. > > > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Jun 28, 2015, at 10:21 AM, John Drucker - Home < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Greg, > > > > > > So the garage is classified as a separate building and the two > > > systems > > are independent ? Two (2) Hour Rated Wall needs clarification, if > > it’s a fire wall or PARTY WALL (See 706.1.1 below) then two separate > buildings. > > Ask the architect. That’s the key. > > > > > > 706.1 General. Each portion of a building separated by one or more > > > fire walls that comply with the provisions of this section shall be > > > considered a separate building. The extent and location of such fire > > > walls shall provide a complete separation separation. Where a fire > > > wall also separates occupancies that are required to be separated by > > > a fire barrier wall, the most restrictive requirements of each > > > separation shall apply. > > > > > > 706.1.1 Party walls. Any wall located on a lot line between adjacent > > > buildings, which is used or adapted for joint service between the > > > two buildings, shall be constructed as a fire wall in accordance > > > with Section 706. > > > Party walls shall be constructed without openings and shall create > > > separate buildings. > > > > > > > > > Here's the IBC/IFC Code Sections; > > > > > > [F] 905.2 Installation standard. Standpipe systems shall be > > > installed in accordance with this section and NFPA 14. > > > > > > 905.3.1 Height. Class III standpipe systems shall be installed > > > throughout buildings where the floor level of the highest story is > > > located more than 30 feet (9144 mm) above the lowest level of the > > > fire department vehicle access, or where the floor level of the > > > lowest story is located more than 30 feet (9144 mm) below the > > > highest level of fire department vehicle access. > > > Exceptions: > > > 1. Class I standpipes are allowed in buildings equipped throughout > > > with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section > > > 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2. > > > 2. Class I manual standpipes are allowed in open parking garages > > > where the highest floor is located not more than 150 feet (45 720 > > > mm) above the lowest level of fire department vehicle access. > > > 3. Class I manual dry standpipes are allowed in open parking garages > > > that are subject to freezing temperatures, provided that the hose > > > connections are located as required for Class II standpipes in > > > accordance with Section 905.5. > > > 4. Class I standpipes are allowed in basements equipped throughout > > > with an automatic sprinkler system. > > > 5. In determining the lowest level of fire department vehicle > > > access, it shall not be required to consider: > > > 5.1. Recessed loading docks for four vehicles or less, and 5.2. > > > Conditions where topography makes access from the fire department > > > vehicle to the building impractical or impossible. > > > > > > [F] 905.4.2 Interconnection. In buildings where more than one > > > standpipe is provided, the standpipes shall be interconnected in > > > accordance with NFPA 14. > > > > > > 2014 NFPA-14 > > > > > > 7.10 Flow Rates. > > > > > > 7.10.1 Class I and Class III Systems. > > > > > > 7.10.1.1* Flow Rate. > > > > > > 7.10.1.1.1 For Class I and Class III systems, the minimum flow rate > > > for the hydraulically most remote standpipe shall be > > > 500 gpm (1893 L/min), through the two most remote 21⁄2 in. > > > (65 mm) outlets, and the calculation procedure shall be in > > > accordance with 7.10.1.2. > > > > > > 7.10.1.1.2 Where a horizontal standpipe on a Class I or Class III > > > system supplies three or more hose connections on any floor, the > > > minimum flow rate for the hydraulically most demanding horizontal > > > standpipe shall be 750 gpm > > > (2840 L/min), and the calculation procedure shall be in accordance > > > with 7.10.1.2.2. > > > > > > 7.10.1.1.3 The minimum flow rate for additional standpipes shall be > > > 250 gpm (946 L/min) per standpipe for buildings with floor areas > > > that do not exceed 80,000 ft2 (7432 m2) per floor. For buildings > > > that exceed 80,000 ft2 (7432m2) per floor, the minimum flow rate for > > > the additional standpipes shall be > > > 500 gpm (1893 L/min) for the second standpipe and 250 gpm > > > (946 L/min) for the third standpipe if the additional flow is > > > required for an unsprinklered building. > > > > > > 7.10.1.1.5 The maximum flow rate shall be 1000 gpm > > > (3785 L/min) for buildings that are sprinklered throughout, in > > > accordance with NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler > > > Systems, and 1250 gpm (4731 L/min) for buildings that are not > > > sprinklered throughout, in accordance with NFPA 13. > > > > > > Hope that helps, > > > > > > > > > John Drucker, CET > > > Assistant Construction Official > > > Fire Protection Subcode Official > > > Building/Fire/Electrical Inspector > > > Borough of Red Bank > > > Red Bank, New Jersey > > > Email: [email protected] > > > Cell/Text: 732-904-6823 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum > > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > Travis Mack > > > Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 11:14 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: standpipes in fire separated building > > > > > > Look in the IBC and see if that 2 hour wall meets the separation > > requirements for a fire separation. > > > > > > If so, I think you should be able to treat as separate buildings for > > > the > > standpipe system. > > > > > > Travis Mack, SET > > > MFP Design, LLC > > > "Follow" us on Facebook: > > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > > > Send large files to MFP Design via: > > > https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On Jun 26, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Greg McGahan <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I am looking a t a high rise building with 2 stair wells attached > > >> to a > > >> 7 story parking garage that is not protected. the Parking garage > > >> will have two stairwells and be served by automatic dry standpipes. > > >> The Parking Garage and the High Rise are separated by a 2 hour rated > wall. > > >> > > >> Question: Do I have to calculate all 4 standpipes simultaneously or > > >> can I calc each set separately due to the fire separation between > > >> the > > two areas? > > >> > > >> Thank You, > > >> > > >> > > >> Greg McGahan > > >> Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> > > >> 1160 McKenzie Road > > >> Cantonment, FL 32533 > > >> 850-937-1850 > > >> fax 850-937-1852 > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firespri > > >> nk > > >> l > > >> er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > kl > > > er.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprin > > > kl > > > er.org > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > > er.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org > _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
