Also There is a meter study which created changes in the 2013 NFPA 13D. (see a below)
http://www.nfpa.org/research/fire-protection-research-foundation/rss-feed-items/home-fire-sprinklers/residential-fire-sprinklers (4)*Pressure loss for a water meter, if any, shall be determined and deducted using one of the following: (a) Table 10.4.3(a) shall be permitted to be used, even where the sprinkler demand flow exceeds the meter's rated continuous flow. (b) Higher pressure losses specified by the manufacturer shall be used in place of those specified in Table 10.4.3(a). (c) Lower pressure losses shall be permitted to be used where supporting data are provided by the meter manufacturer. Peter Schwab VP of Purchasing and Engineering technologies Wayne Automatic Fire Sprinklers Inc. 222 Capitol Court Ocoee, Fl 34761 Mobile: (407) 468-8248 Direct: (407) 877-5570 Fax: (407) 656-8026 www.waynefire.com We're hiring great people at all of our locations! Please check out our website for the details! -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Steve Leyton Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 6:22 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: Old dog, new tricks? I guess we get credit for a pretty thoughtful effort then. We also amended the code to require sprinklers in garages and traded down the least allowable setbacks to give developers the potential for higher densities that could generate additional revenues from parcels that could subsidize the added costs of sprinklers in general. To make the garage sprinklers palatable, we waived the requirement for a fire-rated door and rated sheetrock on the vertical surfaces (those exemptions offset more than the cost of the garage sprinklers). We made one important condition to the exemptions: sheetrock on the lid between a garage or carport with living space over must still be sprinklered. So with some foresight, you head off the local restrictive amendments, which was our goal: create a modified standard that local AHJ's weren't tempted to modify. And to the AHJ who decided that you should use 13 on an attached SFD garage ... well, sorry if this sounds disrespectful but that's just ludicrous. To the 5 GPM and water meter sizes, we also partnered with ACWA - the Association of California Water Agencies. They agreed to establish BMP's for sprinklered homes and one of the considerations was to overlook the 5 GPM. Here's the back-story on meters, y'all: Water meters are for measuring water. Their maximum flow ratings are for no more than 2% error in the reading of consumption. That is NOT the maximum amount of water you can flow through them, it's the maximum CONTINUOUS FLOW (as in 24/7) that you can flow at no worse than 98% accuracy. Meters can tolerate dozens of GPM more flow without damage, but they are rated to 98% accuracy. Flow at maximum calculated demand is, hopefully, a once-in-a-lifetime even so it's considered an INTERMITTENT FLOW. So it's really not a reach to size your meter for the 26 or 28 or 32 or 36 or 40 GPM that various sprinklers would require in 2-sprinkler design areas at different areas of coverage and then add a "virtual" 5 GPM to the calculation. You obtain an accurate head loss and if it should ever operate in a fire, the water purveyor accepts that the meter might not measure the sprinkler flow for billing purposes in an intermittent flow event. On top of that, look into meters rated for higher than class average flows. Badger makes a series of meters called Recordall: they offer a ¾" rated at 25 GPM continuous and 35 GPM intermittent. They make a 1" rated at 40/55 and another 1" rated 50/70. Yes, manufacturer rated at 70. So ... let's all stop being victims and start shoving information down the throats of the uneducated and the naysayers. Several years ago, I brokered a meeting between a city water department, two large homebuilders and a sprinkler contractor. The city was insisting that they use 1" meters at an additional cost of $5,000 per lot on two subdivisions consisting of 440 lots. $2.2M in capacity fees. I performance-engineered a solution that utilized 3/4" meters that addressed the sprinkler flows AND The concurrent 5 GPM allowance and saved the developers those costs. To my deepest regret, I did not get compensated on a % of savings basis. However, I am available for consulting on a fee simple basis + expenses. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of rongreenman . Sent: Monday, August 03, 2015 10:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Old dog, new tricks? Steve, California already has their universal ordinance requiring sprinklers. Modification to provide better protection is then a good idea. But what if that 5gpm generally requires a larger meter where the water purveyor is still charging commercial meter rates and the bill goes up bunches? There's a jurisdiction here that decided that garages need sprinkle ring and without guidelines went to 13. Residential garages now need to be sprinklered there as if they were S2 occupancies as an Ord 1 hazard. Better heat the thing too so you don't need a dry system. This does not help get a statewide ordinance passed. On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Steve Leyton <[email protected]> wrote: > > > It's a universal requirement in CA. Code amendments ... > > Steve > > -------- Original message -------- > From: "rongreenman ." <[email protected]> > Date: 08/03/2015 10:24 AM (GMT-08:00) > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: Old dog, new tricks? > > Not required at all by 13D as far as I know. This seems to be another > one where the local AHJ is making things up based on a hunch. Although > adding a 10% cushion, 5gpm for domestic, heads in an attic or garage > might be better fire protection, particularly for property protection, > adding cost to13D systems defeats the purpose of 13D, which is to > provide an adequate degree of survivability for a few extra minutes > for people, not the building at a minima cost. It's hard enough to > convince legislative bodies that these systems are a good investment without > adding things that are unnecessary. > AHJs are supposed to alter basic requirements, where they are allowed > to do so, based on special jurisdictional needs. I doubt that this > particular community has something going on that suggests domestic > usage is so much higher than average that people will die unless a > domestic demand is included in the calcs. > > On Mon, Aug 3, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Travis Mack, SET <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Only in certain jurisdictions where they require we add 5gpm, or > > where we have a duplex. > > > > Travis Mack, SET > > MFP Design, LLC > > 2508 E Lodgepole Drive > > Gilbert, AZ 85298 > > 480-505-9271 > > fax: 866-430-6107 > > email:[email protected] > > > > http://www.mfpdesign.com > > https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692 > > Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign > > > > > > On 8/3/2015 8:32 AM, Vince Sabolik wrote: > > > >> Does anyone account for domestic water use in calculations for a > >> typical 13D one family system? > >> > >> Curious + woof! > >> > >> > >> thanks, Vince > >> > >> > >> > >> West Tech Fire Protection, Inc. > >> 11351 Pearl Road / Strongsville, Ohio 44136 > >> Phone 440 238-4800 Fax 440 238-4876 Cell 440 724-7601 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sprinklerforum mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> > >> > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sprinklerforum mailing list > > [email protected] > > > > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > > > > > > -- > Ron Greenman > Instructor > Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College > 1101 So. Yakima Ave. > Tacoma, WA 98405 > > [email protected] > > http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ > > 253.680.7346 > 253.576.9700 (cell) > > Member: > ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC > > They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis > Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) > > A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, > inventor and engineer (1876-1958) > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkl > er.org > -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Technology Bates Technical College 1101 So. Yakima Ave. Tacoma, WA 98405 [email protected] http://www.bates.ctc.edu/fireprotection/ 253.680.7346 253.576.9700 (cell) Member: ASEE, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA, AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC, WFSC They are happy men whose natures sort with their vocations. -Francis Bacon, essayist, philosopher, and statesman (1561-1626) A problem well stated is a problem half solved. -Charles F. Kettering, inventor and engineer (1876-1958) _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org _______________________________________________ Sprinklerforum mailing list [email protected] http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
