In North Florida we live in the "no mans land" of freeze protection. It gets cold enough to force freeze protection in these areas but its warm enough that the expense is often a very large percentage of an otherwise modest project. Adding several thousands dollars for a dry riser and bulk main for 4 - 8 heads is hard for an owner and an AHJ to swallow. Nobody is loving Antifreeze these days and with the addition of an RPZ with the discharge above a ceiling, they are not practical either. Dry Sidewalls only throw so far so the 4-8 heads in a seating area of a small restaurant is sometimes 50% or more of the total buildout cost. Then we have to deal with Corrosion. I do not know how much of an issue corrosion is in other water side communities but in our climate it is very difficult. NOTHING but plastic and high grade stainless will hold up long term.
I am NOT arguing that sprinklers are not needed or required, but it is very often not enforced due to the reasons above. We have had instances where we tried to force the issue and were told not by the AHJ. Therefore this would be a GREAT topic for AHJ training. Have a great day, Greg McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC <http://www.livingwaterfp.com> 1160 McKenzie Road Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 fax 850-937-1852 On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Jeff Bridges <[email protected]> wrote: > Love this thread- I’ve faced similar situations and lost every time. > > In the end I agree with Steve’s question of asking why we wouldn’t want to > protect these areas (proactive) > > Popcorn popped- carry on > > > > Jeff Bridges > > *JBFP Inc* > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org] *On Behalf Of *Steve Leyton > *Sent:* Monday, April 17, 2017 7:55 AM > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > John: > > I was responding earlier from home and now, seated at my incredibly > cluttered desk, have reviewed 8.15.7 (2013 ed.). As tactfully as I can > say this, you’re reaching. For very hard-to-grasp fruit. I sincerely > doubt you’re going to get any fire or building official to see your way to > applying an exception that describes a non-combustible envelope with wood > framing and sprinklered interstitial spaces to a vinyl or nylon canopy. > > > > In reality – and I’ve had to walk this line hundreds of times here in fair > weather California – the underlying reason that you’re in pickle and the > owner wants to exclude sprinklers is because they don’t want to deal with > the trouble and expense of designing a canopy frame that will withstand the > weight of its cover, water-filled sprinkler pipe and wind shear. Out here, > you can add the applied horizontal force of seismic bracing as well. In > cold weather climates, there’s the challenge of having to make the system > dry, but often al fresco dining areas are built like screen rooms with hard > framing above and around, but that’s a different story. > > > > Apologies for shamelessly pimping my business model, but if the architect > and owner had been indoctrinated (inoculated) regarding the need to > sprinkler such spaces early in the project (like, DESIGN PHASE), you > wouldn’t inherit this interpretive challenge that puts you at risk > financially. One of the reasons I don’t miss contracting is that as a > consultant, I’m not put in the unenviable and uncomfortable position of > lobbying against sprinklers. Why wouldn’t we (proactive industry types) > want to protect areas where people are eating and drinking, and especially > where they are potentially drinking alcoholic beverages, by candlelight and > in some states still, smoking? > > > > Steve L. > > > > > > > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Steve > Leyton > *Sent:* Monday, April 17, 2017 6:16 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > I suggest you run those by your local building and fire officials. > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: John Irwin <[email protected]> > > Date: 4/17/17 6:00 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > I would disagree with this unless you can direct me to some more > information. 8.15.7.3(2) even goes on to spell out Light and Ordinary > Hazard Occupancy situations where sprinklers can be omitted. > > > > *John Irwin - CET* > > *Division Manager – Fire Sprinklers* > > *Critical System Solutions, LLC* > > > *Licence Number: FPC16-000053*Cell: 813.618.2781 <(813)%20618-2781> > > Email: [email protected] > > > > [image: certifiedmark300 - small] > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Steve > Leyton > *Sent:* Monday, April 17, 2017 8:53 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > Overhang exceptions only apply when the area below is not used for storage > or handling of combustibles or otherwise classified as occupied by the > applicable building code or building official. As Spicey would say, > restaurant seating areas are assembly occupancy, PERIOD! > > > > > > Steve > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: John Irwin <[email protected]> > > Date: 4/17/17 5:45 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: RE: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > I’m using 13 8.15.7 to argue that if the fabric covering the steel frame > is non-combustible than perhaps the sprinklers are not required. > > > > > > *John Irwin - CET* > > *Division Manager – Fire Sprinklers* > > *Critical System Solutions, LLC* > > > *Licence Number: FPC16-000053*Cell: 813.618.2781 <(813)%20618-2781> > > Email: [email protected] > > > > [image: certifiedmark300 - small] > > > > *From:* Sprinklerforum [mailto:[email protected]. > org <[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Steve > Leyton > *Sent:* Monday, April 17, 2017 8:33 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* RE: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > Often, we try to read the standards backwards. The way that NFPA 13 is > written, it requires sprinklers everywhere. What the client is hopeful of > is an exception but I'm pretty sure they are not going to find one for this > particular application. If I'm taking the contrary point of view, I would > say that instead of looking for a section that requires sprinklers here or > there, show me where it says I don't have to put sprinklers over this > occupied area that is part of the use of the protected premises. > > > > > > Steve Leyton > > > > > > > > > > -------- Original message -------- > > From: John Irwin <[email protected]> > > Date: 4/17/17 4:11 AM (GMT-08:00) > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Covered Restaurant Seating Area > > > > Here’s the situation. Existing restaurant seating area covered by steel > frame and vinyl or nylon tarp. 100% open. Protected with sprinklers. > > > > Additional covered seating area being added that will be steel frame but > insulated aluminum panel roof. 100% open. > > > > Client doesn’t believe sprinklers are required and wants the existing > sprinklers under the vinyl canopy removed. > > > > Can someone direct me to code references? > > > > > > *John Irwin* > > *Division Manager – Fire Sprinklers * > > *Critical System Solutions, LLC* > > > *License Number: FPC16-000053*2830 Scherer Drive, Suite 300 > St. Petersburg, FL 33716 > Office: 727.209.5122 <(727)%20209-5122> > > Fax: 727.209.5126 <(727)%20209-5126> > > Cell: 813.618.2781 <(813)%20618-2781> > > Email: [email protected] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sprinklerforum mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler. > org > >
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