I’d agree with Ed. It is likely quite a bit of conversation has already occurred. The reviewer is already trying to get to minimum needed.
Best. Bruce Verhei > On Oct 24, 2019, at 21:44, Ed Vining via Sprinklerforum > <[email protected]> wrote: > > A talk with the AHJ would be better than headache later > . > Ed Vining > 4819 John Muir Rd > Martinez CA 94553 > 925-228-8792 > [email protected] > > >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 9:07 PM Kaiser, Richard via Sprinklerforum >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> There is no conflict between the documents. >> >> >> >> The 2018 IFC commentary is indeed very explicit, but it does NOT say that >> the allowable omission of sprinklers in certain areas negates the building >> as being considered sprinklered throughout. In fact, it says the opposite. >> >> >> >> From 2018 IFC with Commentary: >> >> 903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems. >> >> “Because installation is required to be in accordance with NFPA 13, if the >> standard allows for the omission of sprinklers in any location, then the >> building is still considered as sprinklered throughout.” >> >> >> >> 903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations. >> >> “This section allows the omission of sprinkler protection in certain >> locations if an approved automatic fire detection system is installed. >> Buildings in compliance with one of the six listed conditions would still be >> considered fully sprinklered throughout in compliance with the code and NFPA >> 13 and thus are eligible for all applicable code alternatives, exceptions or >> reductions.” >> >> >> >> Richard Kaiser PE >> >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:20 PM >> To: [email protected]; James Litvak >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]>; Hinson, Ryan >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Trying to determine hydrant locations per IFC, >> wondering how sprinkler coverage omissions will affect distances. >> >> >> >> In the 2018 IFC commentary the language is very explicit in that omission of >> sprinklers no longer qualifies a building as being fully sprinklered and you >> lose the ability to apply any allowances the code gives if the building was >> fully sprinklered. >> >> >> >> Installed throughout means installed throughout. >> >> >> >> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | >> [email protected] | www.jacobs.com >> >> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 1:57 PM >> To: James Litvak <[email protected]>; >> [email protected] >> Cc: Hinson, Ryan <[email protected]> >> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Trying to determine hydrant locations per IFC, >> wondering how sprinkler coverage omissions will affect distances. >> >> >> >> James, >> >> >> >> From IBC 2018 commentary: >> >> Section 202 >> >> DEFINITIONS >> >> [F] AUTOMATIC SPRINKLER SYSTEM. An automatic sprinkler system, for fire >> protection purposes, is an integrated system of underground and overhead >> piping designed in accordance with fire protection engineering standards. >> The system includes a suitable water supply. The portion of the system above >> the ground is a network of specially sized or hydraulically designed piping >> installed in a structure or area, generally overhead, and to which automatic >> sprinklers are connected in a systematic pattern. The system is usually >> activated by heat from a fire and discharges water over the fire area. >> >> An automatic sprinkler system is one type of automatic fire-extinguishing >> system. Automatic sprinkler systems are the most common, and their life >> safety attributes are widely recognized. The code specifies three types of >> automatic sprinkler systems: one installed in accordance with NFPA 13, one >> in accordance with NFPA 13R and the other in accordance with NFPA 13D. To be >> considered for most code design alternatives, a building’s automatic >> sprinkler system must be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13 >> (see Section 903.3.1.1). >> In a fire, sprinklers automatically open and discharge water onto the fire >> in a spray pattern that is designed to contain or extinguish the fire. >> Originally, automatic sprinkler systems were developed just for the >> protection of buildings and their contents. Because of the development and >> improvements in sprinkler head response time and water distribution, >> however, automatic sprinkler systems are now also considered life safety >> systems. Proper operation of an automatic sprinkler system requires careful >> selection of the sprinkler heads so that water in sufficient quantity, at >> adequate pressure and properly distributed will be available to suppress >> the fire. Note that he use of the term “fire area” in the last sentence of >> the definition refers to the area in which the fire is occurring, not to the >> defined term “Fire area.” >> >> There are many different types of automatic sprinkler systems—wet pipe, dry >> pipe, preaction, anti-freeze and various combinations. Sprinklers can be >> pendant, upright or sidewall and can be designed for standard or extended >> coverage. Additional information can be found in NFPA 13. >> >> >> >> Section 903 >> >> AUTOMATIC SPRINKLER SYSTEMS >> >> >> >> [F] 903.3 Installation requirements. Automatic sprinkler systems shall be >> designed and installed in accordance with Sections 903.3.1 through 903.3.8. >> >> [F] 903.3.1 Standards. Sprinkler systems shall be designed and installed in >> accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 unless otherwise permitted by Sections >> 903.3.1.2 and 903.3.1.3 and other chapters of this code, as applicable. >> >> [F] 903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems. Where the provisions of this code >> require that a building or portion thereof be equipped throughout with an >> automatic sprinkler system in accordance with this section, sprinklers shall >> be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13 except as provided in >> Sections 903.3.1.1.1 and 903.3.1.1.2. >> >> NFPA 13 contains the minimum requirements for the design and installation of >> automatic water sprinkler systems and exposure protection sprinkler systems. >> The requirements contained in the standard include the character and >> adequacy of the water supply and the selection of sprinklers, piping, valves >> and all of the materials and accessories. The standard does not include >> requirements for installation of private fire service mains and their >> appurtenances, installation of fire pumps, or construction and installation >> of gravity and pressure tanks and towers. >> NFPA 13 defines seven classifications or types of water sprinkler systems: >> wet pipe [see Commentary Figure 903.3.1.1], dry pipe, preaction or deluge, >> combined dry pipe and preaction, antifreeze systems, sprinkler systems that >> are designed for a special purpose and outside sprinklers for exposure >> protection. While numerous variables must be considered in selecting the >> proper type of sprinkler system, the wet-pipe sprinkler system is recognized >> as the most effective and efficient. The wet-pipe system is also the most >> reliable type of sprinkler system because water under pressure is available >> at the sprinkler. Therefore, wet-pipe sprinkler systems are recommended >> wherever possible. >> >> The extent of coverage and distribution of sprinklers is based on the NFPA >> 13 standard. Numerous conditions exist in the standard where sprinklers are >> specifically required and also where they may or may not be located. Once it >> is determined that the sprinkler system is to be in accordance with NFPA 13, >> that standard must be reviewed for installation details. For example, >> exterior spaces such as combustible canopies are required to be equipped >> with sprinklers according to Section 8.15.7 of NFPA 13 where the canopy >> extends for a distance of 4 feet (1219 mm) or more. A 3-foot (914 mm) >> combustible canopy would not require sprinklers nor would a 6-foot (1829 mm) >> canopy constructed of noncombustible materials, provided there is no >> combustible storage under the canopy. >> >> Because installation is required to be in accordance with NFPA 13, if the >> standard allows for the omission of sprinklers in any location, then the >> building is still considered as sprinklered throughout. For example, Section >> 8.15.8.1.1 of NFPA 13 allows sprinklers to be omitted from bathrooms in >> dwelling units in motels and hotels. If sprinklers are not provided in the >> bathrooms because of the conditions stipulated in NFPA 13, the building >> would still be considered as sprinklered throughout in accordance with the >> code, NFPA 13 and the IFC. >> >> Exceptions for the use of NFPA 13R and 13D systems are addressed throughout >> the code when exceptions based on the use of sprinklers are provided. More >> specifically, if the use of these other standards is appropriate, it will be >> noted within the exception. For a building to be considered “equipped >> throughout” with an NFPA 13 sprinkler system, complete protection must be >> provided in accordance with the referenced standard, subject to the exempt >> locations indicated in Section 903.3.1.1.1. See Commentary Figure 904.2.1 >> for examples of requirements modified through the use of sprinkler systems. >> >> [F] 903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations. Automatic sprinklers shall not be required >> in the following rooms or areas where such rooms or areas are protected with >> an approved automatic fire detection system in accordance with Section 907.2 >> that will respond to visible or invisible particles of combustion. >> Sprinklers shall not be omitted from a room merely because it is damp, of >> fire-resistance-rated construction or contains electrical equipment. >> >> 1. A room where the application of water, or flame and water, constitutes a >> serious life or fire hazard. >> >> 2. A room or space where sprinklers are considered undesirable because of >> the nature of the contents, where approved by the fire code official. >> >> 3. Generator and transformer rooms separated from the remainder of the >> building by walls and floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies having a >> fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours. >> >> 4. Rooms or areas that are of noncombustible construction with wholly >> noncombustible contents. >> >> 5. Fire service access elevator machine rooms and machinery spaces. >> >> 6. Machine rooms, machinery spaces, control rooms and control spaces >> associated with occupant evacuation elevators designed in accordance with >> Section 3008. >> >> This section allows the omission of sprinkler protection in certain >> locations if an approved automatic fire detection system is installed. >> Buildings in compliance with one of the six listed conditions would still be >> considered fully sprinklered throughout in compliance with the code and NFPA >> 13 and thus are eligible for all applicable code alternatives, exceptions or >> reductions. Elimination of the sprinkler system in a sensitive area is >> subject to the approval of the fire code official. >> Condition 1 addresses restrictions where the application of water could >> create a hazardous condition. For example, sprinkler protection is to be >> avoided where it is not compatible with certain stored materials (i.e., some >> water-reactive hazardous materials such as calcium carbide). Combustible >> metals, such as magnesium and aluminum, may burn so intensely that the use >> of water to attempt fire control will only intensify the reaction. >> >> It is not the intent of Condition 2 to omit sprinklers solely because of a >> potential for water damage. A desire to not sprinkler a certain area (such >> as a computer room or operating room) does not fall within the limitations >> of the exception unless there is something unique about the space that would >> result in water being incompatible. A computer room can be adequately >> protected using an automatic sprinkler system or an alternative gaseous >> suppression agent system or a combination of these systems. The intent of >> Condition 2 is to consider whether the contents would react adversely to the >> application of water. It is important to note that the fire code official >> must approve the use of this item. Note also that with respect to computer >> rooms, NFPA 75 (Protection of Information Technology Equipment) (not a >> referenced standard) recognizes automatic sprinklers as the primary fire >> protection system for computer rooms. >> >> Condition 3 recognizes the low fuel load and low occupancy hazards >> associated with generator and transformer rooms and, therefore, allows the >> omission of sprinkler protection if the rooms are separated from adjacent >> areas by 2-hour fire-resistance-rated construction. This condition assumes >> the room is not used for any combustible storage. This condition is similar >> to Section 8.15.11.3 of NFPA 13, which exempts electrical equipment rooms >> from sprinkler protection, provided the room is dedicated to the use of >> dry-type electrical equipment, is constructed as a 2-hour >> fire-resistance-rated enclosure, and is not used for combustible storage. >> >> Condition 4 requires the construction of the room or area, as well as the >> contents, to be noncombustible. An example would be an area in an >> unprotected steel-frame building (Type IIB construction) used for steel or >> concrete block storage. Neither involves any significant combustible >> packaging or sources of ignition, and few combustibles are present (see >> Commentary Figure 903.3.1). >> >> Condition 5 addresses the concern for elevator machine rooms and machinery >> spaces associated with fire service access elevators as required by Sections >> 403.6.1 and 3007, for buildings with occupied floors greater than 120 feet >> (36.58 m) from the lowest level of fire department access. These elevators >> need to work during fire situations and their operation cannot be threatened >> by the activation of a sprinkler in a machine room or space that may affect >> the operation of the elevators. Fire service access elevators are required >> to be continuously monitored at the fire command center in accordance with >> Section 3007.7. >> >> Condition 6, similar to Condition 5, exempts sprinklers from the machine >> rooms, machinery spaces, control rooms and control spaces for occupant >> evacuation elevators. Like fire service access elevators, these elevators >> need to work during fire situations and their operation cannot be >> threatened by the activation of a sprinkler in machine rooms, machinery >> spaces, control rooms and control spaces. Such elevators are required to be >> monitored at the fire command center in accordance with Section 3008.7. >> >> >> >> Hope this helps, >> >> >> >> Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell >> >> Senior Fire Protection Engineer >> >> O 952-656-3662 \ M 320-250-5404 \ F 952-229-2923 >> >> [email protected] \ burnsmcd.com >> >> 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 300 \ Bloomington, MN 55437 >> >> *Registered in: LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT >> >> **NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 12:14 PM >> To: Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]> >> Cc: James Litvak <[email protected]>; >> [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Trying to determine hydrant locations per IFC, >> wondering how sprinkler coverage omissions will affect distances. >> >> >> >> Interesting. I don't have access to a copy of the Code and Commentary. Would >> you be able to copy/paste the relevant section, or tell me where to find it? >> I will try to get access to it. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 12:35 PM Prahl, Craig/GVL <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Nope, the omission of sprinklers by any means or allowances null and voids >> the “sprinklered throughout” classification. That is addressed within the >> IBC Commentary. Just had this discussion on a project myself. >> >> >> >> It is the same if you substitute a clean agent for sprinklers in an area. >> No longer considered sprinklered throughout. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | >> [email protected] | www.jacobs.com >> >> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 >> >> >> >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2019 12:18 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: James Litvak <[email protected]> >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Trying to determine hydrant locations per IFC, wondering >> how sprinkler coverage omissions will affect distances. >> >> >> >> I'm working on a manufacturing facility that is building type IIB. Per the >> fire-flow requirement of 8,000 gpm, the average spacing of hydrants will >> need to be 200 feet, per IFC Table C102.1. However, note f will allow a >> 50-percent spacing increase if "the building is equipped throughout with an >> automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 of the >> International Fire Code" (emphasis mine). The reason I bolded throughout is >> because approximately 2/3 of the building has sprinklers omitted in >> accordance with exceptions from Section 903.3.1.1. So my question is, if >> Section 903.3.1.1 is being followed such that it is being applied throughout >> the building, and the areas of the building that aren't being sprinklered >> are allowed by that section, does this count as "equipped throughout"? >> >> >> >> >> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged >> information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, >> copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended >> recipients is strictly prohibited. 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