Did you all notice what the appendix to 3.7.1 Definition of Panel construction.
A.3.7.1 Obstructed Construction. The following examples of obstructed construction are provided to assist the user in determining the type of construction feature: (4) Panel Construction. The term panel construction as used in this standard includes ceiling panels formed by members capable of trapping heat to aid the operation of sprinklers and limited to a maximum of 300 ft2 (28 m2)in area. There should be no unfilled penetrations in the cross-sectional area of the bounding structural members including the interface at the roof. Beams spaced more than 71⁄2 ft (2.3 m) apart and framed into girders qualify as panel construction, provided the 300 ft2 (28 m2) area limitation is met. That last sentence sounds a lot like what Jerry has described. Although ; A.3.7.2 Unobstructed Construction. The following examples of unobstructed construction are provided to assist the user in determining the type of construction feature: (3) Smooth Ceiling Construction. The term smooth ceiling construction as used in this standard includes the following: (b) Continuous smooth bays formed by wood, concrete, or steel beams spaced more than 71⁄2 ft (2.3 m) on centers — beams supported by columns, girders, or trusses. Also sounds like this definition? So which is it? Anthony Carrizosa Project Manager | Fire Protection 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222 https://archerconstruction.com <https://archerconstruction.com/> From: Steve Leyton <st...@protectiondesign.com> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 8:55 AM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org; Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com> Cc: Kerschner, Philip <pkersch...@ballinger.com>; jvankol...@mfpc.us; Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Panel Construction But the definition of panelized construction DOES require that the members defining the panels must be capable of trapping heat and leaky flutes are right out. MANY years ago, when TJI’s were still new on the market and I was still working in contracting, we got a project composed of three big tilt-up warehouses with really deep – like, 30” – TJI purlins at 8’ centers hung from glu-lam beams. At the time, 4x14 purlins into GLB’s was pretty standard and these LOOKED about the same so we went with panelized construction and at 22” deflector distance we could center the sprinklers without sprigs and make it work per the beam rule. But the AHJ said that the TJI’s weren’t “members capable of trapping heat” and ruled it was obstructed construction and we had to measure the deflector distance to 6” below the 2x6 sub-purlins. This meant 2,500 sprigs or some such so we actually queried NFPA via the general help line. I was QUITE confident that I was right since the joists had solid plywood (then) members but was informed that only dimensional lumber was considered to be capable of trapping heat. Turns out that there were already a LOT of reports of fire burning right through TJI webs and the AHJ was right. The point is that panelized (and its obstructed 22” deflector distance) only works if the panel forces the heat to log down in a timely manner. Leaky flutes or holes in the boundary negate that effect. I’m not sure I even agree with the fire proofing theories that were floated last week but I stand by what I said, that it’s smooth ceiling and therefore unobstructed construction. SL From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Kerschner, Philip via Sprinklerforum Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 8:45 AM To: Kyle.Montgomery; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Kerschner, Philip; jvankol...@mfpc.us <mailto:jvankol...@mfpc.us> ; Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Panel Construction I would also be interested in why you would have to fill the flutes. I know it says they need to be filled in NFPA 13 A3.7.1, but like Kyle said, the definition for obstructed construction just says that the obstructions have to ‘impede heat flow or water distribution in a manner that materially affects the ability of sprinklers to control or suppress a fire.’ Unobstructed construction is defined as at least 70% open. I guess that doesn’t necessarily mean that less than 70% open equals obstructed construction? I have received an informal interpretation from NFPA before and they confirmed that obstructed construction does not have to 100% impede the smoke. So this flute situation is interesting. | PHIL KERSCHNER, PE FIRE PROTECTION AND LIFE SAFETY B A L L I N G E R 215 446 0380 From: Kyle.Montgomery <kmontgom...@aerofire.com <mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 3:25 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; jvankol...@mfpc.us <mailto:jvankol...@mfpc.us> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Panel Construction Or, if they use spray-on fireproofing, that usually fills up the gaps. But the OP’s theory should be sound for calling it obstructed construction. More to Travis’s point, every time this comes up I wonder about that requirement for Panel Construction. Beam and Girder Construction doesn’t require the spaces to be filled. For Bar Joist Construction with Fireproofing, it can be up to 70% open and still be considered obstructed. So why do the unfilled flutes matter so much for panel construction? Kyle Montgomery Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co. 21605 N. Central Ave. Phoenix, AZ 85024 Direct: 623.580.7820 Cell: 602.763.4736 <mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com> kmontgom...@aerofire.com From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 1:13 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: Travis Mack, SET, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G <tm...@mfpdesign.com <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> >; jvankol...@mfpc.us <mailto:jvankol...@mfpc.us> Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Panel Construction If you have typical metal deck, then you have to fill the “flutes” with mineral wool or something similar. Panel construction requires heat doesn’t pass over the top of the members. Typical metal deck will allow that to happen if the spaces aren’t filled with a noncombustible material. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mfpdesign.com_&d=DwMFAg&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=w24rzGXNmfYUmumX6QSGP-Eh1Nb5z03t5V4E0DAAWjg&s=R6DVUUDHgzcU1lFf9fqMlokRzN0XzH9F4mxjBWesf_U&e=> Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET MFP Design, LLC 3356 E Vallejo Ct Gilbert, AZ 85298 NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700 fax: 866-430-6107 <mailto:tm...@mfpdesign.com> tm...@mfpdesign.com www.mfpdesign.com <http://www.mfpdesign.com> Send large files to us via: https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack “The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.” From: Sprinklerforum <sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 1:12 PM To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> Cc: jvankol...@mfpc.us <mailto:jvankol...@mfpc.us> Subject: Panel Construction I just want to make sure I’m applying this section correctly. I have a room with exposed deck ceiling, the framing is wide flange beams about 11’-0” on center. The walls of the room will section the beam pockets into areas less than 300sqft. I can still consider this obstructed construction. Jerry Van Kolken Millennium Fire Protection Corp. 2950 San Luis Rey Rd. Oceanside, CA 92058 (760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730
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