No, I have not seen the drawing. Dane - please send me the drawing.
Thanks, John John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/> <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do* *Be a Member, Get a Member* We’re introducing many new programs to help meet your team’s business needs. AFSA is offering a six-month trial membership for contractors and a 12-month trial membership for municipal AHJs. Let’s help potential members see what they’re missing! Current members who recruit a new contractor member will receive a $100 gift card and the new member gets a free webinar. Let’s grow stronger together! Join AFSA <http://www.firesprinkler.org/join>. On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:03 AM Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> wrote: > Have you guys had a chance to look at the actual plans Dane is dealing > with? It seems to meet the letter of the law for not requiring additional > heads, but it also looks like the outlier that the committee probably > wasn't expecting when that was written. In plan view, these panels cover > nearly 90% of the floor area. I'm not saying that you definitely need > sprinklers, but it would be cool to see some fire modeling or something to > see the impact of these panels on activation time and/or sprinkler > discharge. > > -Kyle M > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On > Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum > Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 8:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Cc: John Denhardt <[email protected]>; Dane Long < > [email protected]>; Skyler Bilbo <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Noncontinuous obstructions More than 18" down > > My understanding of the standard is no additional protection is needed as > long as you have the 18" of clearance between the sprinkler and the top of > the obstruction. As you stated, the pattern is developed sufficiently to > allow adequate protection since water will be delivered on both sides of > the obstructions. > > *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal > interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee > Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no > liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be > considered the official position of the AFSA, NFPA or NFPA's technical > committees. AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, > and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as > such.* > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, PE > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > m: p: 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > w: firesprinkler.org > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_firesprinkler.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=BZdIbAOiOpzb7zeMSyXRk7uLyyR6OFVrhuVWUfDEvvM&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_afsa_status_1039528345367732224&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=rgZGhkVIEiOkxv7HF0k1dibEsbMBuX-VGP-f93fSO8U&e= > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_company_american-2Dfire-2Dsprinkler-2Dassociation-2Dafsa-2D_&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=q7u9PEOPcL28Jkuawdg_gajxoP_Wz9VXBIZ-7AoKK2I&e= > > > < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.instagram.com_firesprinklerorg_&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=RqqX_n3FmBVW0QSNLTzcmgf-0_7yqQkw_5hraWbfMYA&e= > > > > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do* > > > *Be a Member, Get a Member* > > We’re introducing many new programs to help meet your team’s business > needs. AFSA is offering a six-month trial membership for contractors and a > 12-month trial membership for municipal AHJs. Let’s help potential members > see what they’re missing! Current members who recruit a new contractor > member will receive a $100 gift card and the new member gets a free > webinar. Let’s grow stronger together! Join AFSA < > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.firesprinkler.org_join&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=_3Ly_BO9z3thS1nj7D6ZziSXgla_RERUlFcjERAE84Y&e= > >. > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:12 AM Dane Long via Sprinklerforum < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > I don’t think these classify as a cloud ceiling as their 4ft by 8ft > > tectum ceiling panels suspended below the desk. Per A8.6.5.3.3 Ceiling > > panels with the width 4ft or less and the length 4ft or more and more > > than 18" down do not require protection. NFPA 13 doesn’t specify a max > > or min. spacing between ceiling panels. These panels are spaced > > minimum 6" between and sloped in two directions (See Attached for some > snips). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dane Long, AET > > Engineering Technician | Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc. > > P: 785.825.7710 > > F: 785.825.0667 > > A: 1383 W. North Street Salina, KS 67401 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> > > On Behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum > > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 5:36 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Cc: Skyler Bilbo <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Noncontinuous obstructions More than 18" down > > > > It sounds like the architect is working hard to inspire kids with his > > beautiful ceiling design... From the little information you gave, it > > may be more like a cloud ceiling than a traditional obstruction. See > > section > > 3.3.5.1 for the definition, and then 8.15.1.2.1.3 for criteria. You > > may also want to check out the research that "inspired" the cloud > > ceiling criteria at the link below, it is really great information. > > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nfpa.org_News > > -2Dand-2DResearch_Fire-2Dstatistics-2Dand-2Dreports_Research-2Dreports > > _Suppression_Sprinkler-2DProtection-2Dfor-2DCloud-2DCeilings&d=DwIGaQ& > > c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A > > &m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=W8eQ1L2e0rGqQRs39FSMB > > VSvuUNAZSPTj_xaVpb7Ktg&e= > > > > > > Skyler Bilbo > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 3:41 PM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Does "at least 1 inch of space between each panel" mean several feet > > > of space between each panel, or does it mean just a couple of inches. > > > > > > To me, it sounds more like you would have to treat them as grouped > > > obstructions and protect underneath. > > > > > > -Kyle M > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum > > > <[email protected]> > > > On Behalf Of Dane Long via Sprinklerforum > > > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 2:29 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: Dane Long <[email protected]> > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Noncontinuous obstructions More than 18" down > > > > > > Seeking others opinions.... > > > > > > I'm doing an Elementary school where in the commons area they have > > > 4ft. by 8ft. tectum ceiling panels space throughout with at least 1" > > > of space between each panel. These panels are slopes with the roof > > > in one direct and then away from the roof in another. A8.6.5.3.3 Per > > > NFPA > > > 13 (2016) > > > > > > "A.8.6.5.3.3 When obstructions are located more than 18 in. (450 mm) > > > below the sprinkler deflector, an adequate spray pattern develops > > > and obstructions up to and including 4 ft (1.2 m) wide do not > > > require additional protection underneath. Examples are ducts, decks, > > > open grate flooring, catwalks, cutting tables, overhead doors, > > > soffits, ceiling panels, and other similar obstructions. The width > > > of an object is the lesser of the two horizontal dimensions (with > > > the length being the longer horizontal dimension). Sprinkler > > > protection is not required under objects where the length is greater > > > than 4 ft (1.2 m) and the width is 4 ft (1.2 m) or less." > > > > > > Doesn’t seem to me like I need protection below these panels. > > > > > > *Send me a private email if you'd like to look at the pdf. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Dane Long, AET > > > Engineering Technician | Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc. > > > P: 785.825.7710 > > > F: 785.825.0667 > > > A: 1383 W. North Street Salina, KS 67401 > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sprinklerforum > > > <[email protected]> > > > On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum > > > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 2:35 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Cc: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> > > > Subject: Re: Multiple System Calculation > > > > > > This sounds like a job for more sheetrock. Oh, and more cowbell is > > > always good. > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:57 AM Sean Conlin via Sprinklerforum < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > See NFPA-13, 23.4.4.1.1.4 and 23.4.4.1.1.5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This should help you with the engineer. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Sean W. Conlin, A.Sc.T. > > > > Director > > > > Demand Sprinkler Design Inc. > > > > 37 Summerfield Crescent > > > > Brampton, ON L6X 4K4 > > > > T: 905-216-0922 > > > > C: 416-317-0028 > > > > E: [email protected] > > > > > > > > This message, including any attachments is considered confidential > > > > and for use only by the intended recipient(s). > > > > Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited. > > > > Please delete this communication and notify Demand Sprinkler > > > > Design Inc. if you are not the intended recipient or have received > > > > this message in error. Demand Sprinkler Design Inc. accepts no > > > > responsibility or liability for any loss or damage from use, > > > > including damage from viruses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Joe Burtell <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: February 11, 2021 1:47 PM > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Subject: Multiple System Calculation > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a situation where an engineer is telling me I have to > > > > calculate a wet and dry system together because neither space > > > > meets the 1500 s.f minimum. I have a penthouse mechanical room OH > > > > 1 (WET) of > > 1014 s.f. > > > > and an adjacent room OH1 (DRY) of 469 s.f. I have calculated each > > > > room separate of each other. There is a full-height wall with a > > > > door that separates the rooms. The wall and door are not fire > > > > rated, so the large room method is out. This does not make any sense > to me. > > > > Any sections that would require this to be done. He is saying > > > > 11.1.2 of NFPA 13 2016 requires it. I argue exception #2 says it > > > > does not > > apply. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Web Site: > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.burtellfire. > > > > co > > > > m&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8et > > > > xB > > > > 7n > > > > LN8OBJwQd9A&m=YiHEM_F8z0hFdXcjHH1CqWJ0eIkSBYspd-WeDgZrxAI&s=Ur5xEx > > > > eU > > > > b- o3ipcDAOmkBHLKgAtIDEQsMndg_0EjUcg&e= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the > > > > sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission > > > > is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. > > > > This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous > > > > e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may > > > > contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If > > > > you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or > > > > the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the > > > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, > > > > dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this > > > > transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to > > > > this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > > > > e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by > > > > return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail > > > > transmission as well as its attachments without reading > > > or saving it in any manner. 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