I now have the drawing. I am reviewing it. Thanks, John
John August Denhardt, PE *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* *American Fire Sprinkler Association* m: p: 301-343-1457 214-349-5965 ext 121 w: firesprinkler.org <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/> <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do* *Be a Member, Get a Member* We’re introducing many new programs to help meet your team’s business needs. AFSA is offering a six-month trial membership for contractors and a 12-month trial membership for municipal AHJs. Let’s help potential members see what they’re missing! Current members who recruit a new contractor member will receive a $100 gift card and the new member gets a free webinar. Let’s grow stronger together! Join AFSA <http://www.firesprinkler.org/join>. On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:08 AM John Denhardt <[email protected]> wrote: > No, I have not seen the drawing. > > Dane - please send me the drawing. > > Thanks, > John > > John August Denhardt, PE > *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* > > *American Fire Sprinkler Association* > m: p: 301-343-1457 > 214-349-5965 ext 121 > w: firesprinkler.org > <https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/> > <https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/> > <https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/> > > *Our members are at the heart of everything we do* > > > *Be a Member, Get a Member* > > We’re introducing many new programs to help meet your team’s business > needs. AFSA is offering a six-month trial membership for contractors and a > 12-month trial membership for municipal AHJs. Let’s help potential members > see what they’re missing! Current members who recruit a new contractor > member will receive a $100 gift card and the new member gets a free > webinar. Let’s grow stronger together! Join AFSA > <http://www.firesprinkler.org/join>. > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 11:03 AM Kyle.Montgomery <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Have you guys had a chance to look at the actual plans Dane is dealing >> with? It seems to meet the letter of the law for not requiring additional >> heads, but it also looks like the outlier that the committee probably >> wasn't expecting when that was written. In plan view, these panels cover >> nearly 90% of the floor area. I'm not saying that you definitely need >> sprinklers, but it would be cool to see some fire modeling or something to >> see the impact of these panels on activation time and/or sprinkler >> discharge. >> >> -Kyle M >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On >> Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum >> Sent: Monday, February 15, 2021 8:48 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Cc: John Denhardt <[email protected]>; Dane Long < >> [email protected]>; Skyler Bilbo <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Noncontinuous obstructions More than 18" down >> >> My understanding of the standard is no additional protection is needed as >> long as you have the 18" of clearance between the sprinkler and the top of >> the obstruction. As you stated, the pattern is developed sufficiently to >> allow adequate protection since water will be delivered on both sides of >> the obstructions. >> >> *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal >> interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee >> Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no >> liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be >> considered the official position of the AFSA, NFPA or NFPA's technical >> committees. AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering services, >> and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as >> such.* >> >> Thanks, >> John >> >> John August Denhardt, PE >> *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* >> >> *American Fire Sprinkler Association* >> m: p: 301-343-1457 >> 214-349-5965 ext 121 >> w: firesprinkler.org >> < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.facebook.com_firesprinkler.org_&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=BZdIbAOiOpzb7zeMSyXRk7uLyyR6OFVrhuVWUfDEvvM&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__twitter.com_afsa_status_1039528345367732224&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=rgZGhkVIEiOkxv7HF0k1dibEsbMBuX-VGP-f93fSO8U&e= >> > < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.linkedin.com_company_american-2Dfire-2Dsprinkler-2Dassociation-2Dafsa-2D_&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=q7u9PEOPcL28Jkuawdg_gajxoP_Wz9VXBIZ-7AoKK2I&e= >> > >> < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.instagram.com_firesprinklerorg_&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=RqqX_n3FmBVW0QSNLTzcmgf-0_7yqQkw_5hraWbfMYA&e= >> > >> >> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do* >> >> >> *Be a Member, Get a Member* >> >> We’re introducing many new programs to help meet your team’s business >> needs. AFSA is offering a six-month trial membership for contractors and a >> 12-month trial membership for municipal AHJs. Let’s help potential members >> see what they’re missing! Current members who recruit a new contractor >> member will receive a $100 gift card and the new member gets a free >> webinar. Let’s grow stronger together! Join AFSA < >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.firesprinkler.org_join&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A&m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=_3Ly_BO9z3thS1nj7D6ZziSXgla_RERUlFcjERAE84Y&e= >> >. >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 10:12 AM Dane Long via Sprinklerforum < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > I don’t think these classify as a cloud ceiling as their 4ft by 8ft >> > tectum ceiling panels suspended below the desk. Per A8.6.5.3.3 Ceiling >> > panels with the width 4ft or less and the length 4ft or more and more >> > than 18" down do not require protection. NFPA 13 doesn’t specify a max >> > or min. spacing between ceiling panels. These panels are spaced >> > minimum 6" between and sloped in two directions (See Attached for some >> snips). >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Dane Long, AET >> > Engineering Technician | Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc. >> > P: 785.825.7710 >> > F: 785.825.0667 >> > A: 1383 W. North Street Salina, KS 67401 >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> >> > On Behalf of Skyler Bilbo via Sprinklerforum >> > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 5:36 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Cc: Skyler Bilbo <[email protected]> >> > Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Noncontinuous obstructions More than 18" down >> > >> > It sounds like the architect is working hard to inspire kids with his >> > beautiful ceiling design... From the little information you gave, it >> > may be more like a cloud ceiling than a traditional obstruction. See >> > section >> > 3.3.5.1 for the definition, and then 8.15.1.2.1.3 for criteria. You >> > may also want to check out the research that "inspired" the cloud >> > ceiling criteria at the link below, it is really great information. >> > >> > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.nfpa.org_News >> > -2Dand-2DResearch_Fire-2Dstatistics-2Dand-2Dreports_Research-2Dreports >> > _Suppression_Sprinkler-2DProtection-2Dfor-2DCloud-2DCeilings&d=DwIGaQ& >> > c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A >> > &m=dE_ALmGW3CHaFJIa1qPVLZpyrhiKK9Q6pwnWic9Kb74&s=W8eQ1L2e0rGqQRs39FSMB >> > VSvuUNAZSPTj_xaVpb7Ktg&e= >> > >> > >> > Skyler Bilbo >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 3:41 PM Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Does "at least 1 inch of space between each panel" mean several feet >> > > of space between each panel, or does it mean just a couple of inches. >> > > >> > > To me, it sounds more like you would have to treat them as grouped >> > > obstructions and protect underneath. >> > > >> > > -Kyle M >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Sprinklerforum >> > > <[email protected]> >> > > On Behalf Of Dane Long via Sprinklerforum >> > > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 2:29 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Cc: Dane Long <[email protected]> >> > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Noncontinuous obstructions More than 18" down >> > > >> > > Seeking others opinions.... >> > > >> > > I'm doing an Elementary school where in the commons area they have >> > > 4ft. by 8ft. tectum ceiling panels space throughout with at least 1" >> > > of space between each panel. These panels are slopes with the roof >> > > in one direct and then away from the roof in another. A8.6.5.3.3 Per >> > > NFPA >> > > 13 (2016) >> > > >> > > "A.8.6.5.3.3 When obstructions are located more than 18 in. (450 mm) >> > > below the sprinkler deflector, an adequate spray pattern develops >> > > and obstructions up to and including 4 ft (1.2 m) wide do not >> > > require additional protection underneath. Examples are ducts, decks, >> > > open grate flooring, catwalks, cutting tables, overhead doors, >> > > soffits, ceiling panels, and other similar obstructions. The width >> > > of an object is the lesser of the two horizontal dimensions (with >> > > the length being the longer horizontal dimension). Sprinkler >> > > protection is not required under objects where the length is greater >> > > than 4 ft (1.2 m) and the width is 4 ft (1.2 m) or less." >> > > >> > > Doesn’t seem to me like I need protection below these panels. >> > > >> > > *Send me a private email if you'd like to look at the pdf. >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Dane Long, AET >> > > Engineering Technician | Bamford Fire Sprinkler Co., Inc. >> > > P: 785.825.7710 >> > > F: 785.825.0667 >> > > A: 1383 W. North Street Salina, KS 67401 >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Sprinklerforum >> > > <[email protected]> >> > > On Behalf Of Ron Greenman via Sprinklerforum >> > > Sent: Friday, February 12, 2021 2:35 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Cc: Ron Greenman <[email protected]> >> > > Subject: Re: Multiple System Calculation >> > > >> > > This sounds like a job for more sheetrock. Oh, and more cowbell is >> > > always good. >> > > >> > > On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 10:57 AM Sean Conlin via Sprinklerforum < >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > > > See NFPA-13, 23.4.4.1.1.4 and 23.4.4.1.1.5. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > This should help you with the engineer. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Regards, >> > > > >> > > > Sean W. Conlin, A.Sc.T. >> > > > Director >> > > > Demand Sprinkler Design Inc. >> > > > 37 Summerfield Crescent >> > > > Brampton, ON L6X 4K4 >> > > > T: 905-216-0922 >> > > > C: 416-317-0028 >> > > > E: [email protected] >> > > > >> > > > This message, including any attachments is considered confidential >> > > > and for use only by the intended recipient(s). >> > > > Any other distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly >> prohibited. >> > > > Please delete this communication and notify Demand Sprinkler >> > > > Design Inc. if you are not the intended recipient or have received >> > > > this message in error. Demand Sprinkler Design Inc. accepts no >> > > > responsibility or liability for any loss or damage from use, >> > > > including damage from viruses. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: Joe Burtell <[email protected]> >> > > > Sent: February 11, 2021 1:47 PM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: Multiple System Calculation >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I have a situation where an engineer is telling me I have to >> > > > calculate a wet and dry system together because neither space >> > > > meets the 1500 s.f minimum. I have a penthouse mechanical room OH >> > > > 1 (WET) of >> > 1014 s.f. >> > > > and an adjacent room OH1 (DRY) of 469 s.f. I have calculated each >> > > > room separate of each other. There is a full-height wall with a >> > > > door that separates the rooms. The wall and door are not fire >> > > > rated, so the large room method is out. This does not make any >> sense to me. >> > > > Any sections that would require this to be done. He is saying >> > > > 11.1.2 of NFPA 13 2016 requires it. I argue exception #2 says it >> > > > does not >> > apply. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Best regards, >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > *Joe Burtell, SET, CFPS* >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > [image: Burtell Fire_Small] >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Phone | Fax | Mobile| Text *406-204-4653 <++1-406-204-4653>* >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > 116 N. 11th Street | Billings, MT 59101 >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Web Site: >> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.burtellfire >> . >> > > > co >> > > > m&d=DwIGaQ&c=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA&r=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8et >> > > > xB >> > > > 7n >> > > > LN8OBJwQd9A&m=YiHEM_F8z0hFdXcjHH1CqWJ0eIkSBYspd-WeDgZrxAI&s=Ur5xEx >> > > > eU >> > > > b- o3ipcDAOmkBHLKgAtIDEQsMndg_0EjUcg&e= >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > *“**The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the >> > > > sweetness of low price is forgotten.**”* >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > *NOTICE:* The information contained in this e-mail transmission >> > > > is intended only for use of the individual or entity named above. >> > > > This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, previous >> > > > e-mail transmissions or other information attached to it, may >> > > > contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If >> > > > you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail transmission, or >> > > > the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the >> > > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, >> > > > dissemination, distribution, copying or other use of this >> > > > transmission or any of the information contained in or attached to >> > > > this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this >> > > > e-mail transmission in error, please immediately notify us by >> > > > return e-mail transmission and destroy the original e-mail >> > > > transmission as well as its attachments without reading >> > > or saving it in any manner. 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