Re: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping

Tue, 01 Mar 2022 13:11:24 -0800 

Gary,

Have you spoken with/to the staff at Ames or Zurn regarding this issue?
As I noted a day or so ago their in-building riser is indeed stainless steel, and can be purchased with grooved or flanged ends.  In most of the sprinkler system reviews I've done where one of these was used it connected directly to a black steel riser in inside the building.
I cannot imagine that such a product would not have already encountered a substantial number of failures prompting discontinuation of it's use and manufacture.  I also note that according to the data sheets from both Ames and Zurn it is listed by UL, and approved by FM.  It seems unlikely to me that neither of those would be current if such issues as you've expressed concerns over were significant.
Do you have a specific example of such an issue taking place?  If so, I'm aware of a couple of hundred (at least) contractors and a staggering number of AHJ's who would be interested in knowing there's a potential for material failure that no one considered. Any such a failure would place the sprinkler system out of service, and that is something not to be ignored. 

sincerely,
*Ken Wagoner, SET*
*Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235*
*Phone: (760) 745-6181 *
*Visit the website <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1>* 

On 2/28/2022 4:41 PM, Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum wrote:

That can be if corrosion buildup adheres to the steel and creates a pacifying 
layer. When it is scrubbed off, new metal is exposed and corrosion is faster.


Gary Howard, P. Eng.,
Consulting Engineer
[email protected]  <mailto:[email protected]>
416-843-1413







On Feb 28, 2022, at 4:21 PM, John Denhardt via 
Sprinklerforum<[email protected]>  wrote:

I understand Henry.  But I did a lot of copper systems in my earlier days.
I remember seeing corrosion on typical copper/galvanized steel
plumbing systems but not on steel/copper sprinkler systems.  I asked why.
I was told by a seasoned engineer, the water must be flowing through the
systems to cause a major issue. The statement to me was, since sprinkler
water is static, very little corrosion occurs.  ?????

*The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal
interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee
Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no
liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be
considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its
technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering
services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied
upon, as such.*

Thanks,
John

John August Denhardt, PE
*Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
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On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 4:02 PM Henry Fontana<[email protected]>  wrote:


John you are correct.  You need  three things for corrosion to happen a
cathode (one metal), an anode (a second metal), and an electrolyte.
Without water you have no electrolyte their for no corrosion.  So if this
system is dry then you have no issue.

Henry Fontana
Operations Manager (NYC)
Johnson Controls Fire Protection
100 Lighting Way Secaucus, NJ 07094
Cell: 201-210-9873
[email protected]


-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum<[email protected]>  On
Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 2:48 PM
To:<[email protected]>  <
[email protected]>
Cc: John Denhardt<[email protected]>
Subject: Fwd: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping

I am not an expert on this topic. However, I was told the key was
corrosion mainly occurs when water flows on a regular basis.  With water
flowing on a regular basis, corrosion becomes a larger concern.

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler
Association
301-343-1457

Begin forwarded message:


From: Ken Wagoner via Sprinklerforum
<[email protected]>
Date: February 28, 2022 at 1:59:28 PM EST
To:[email protected]
Cc: Ken Wagoner<[email protected]>, "Prahl, Craig/GVL"
<[email protected]>, "Hinson, Ryan"<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping
Reply-To:[email protected]

Craig,

I would ask the question of the engineering staff over at Ames. The

number of their stainless steel in-building risers I've seen has been
astounding, and they primarily connect to a black steel riser.

I would wager there's been some investigation on their part of that

issue.

sincerely,
*Ken Wagoner, SET*
*Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235*
*Phone: (760) 745-6181 *
*Visit the website
<https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flin kprotect.cudasvc.com%2Furl%3Fa%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.parsleyconsult ing.com%252f%26c%3DE%2C1%2CY5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9Zq W2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_ n5hDHeK%26typo%3D1&amp;data=04%7C01%7CHenry.Fontana%40jci.com%7Cfa007e 4b1cc24a8f19aa08d9faf33eb9%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0% 7C637816745050436909%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI joiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=E2bdQ2HHaH0 C1AmYPNjaVBNxu3d20bIjkNGXtAedvUI%3D&amp;reserved=0>* 
On 2/28/2022 10:21 AM, Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum wrote:
Craig,

 From literature I have, SS has an anodic index of approximately 0.60 V

while plain CS has that of 0.85 V.

If the environment in which the joint is located is 'normal' or

'controlled', you shouldn't have a galvanic compatibility issue.  If the
environment is considered 'harsh', the anodic index delta must be smaller
(approximately 0.15 V) in which case, some sort of dielectric
fitting/sacrificial anode would be needed for joint longevity.

As I am not an expert, I suggest reaching out to someone such ashttps://

nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corrosion-doctors.org%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7CHenry.Fontana%40jci.com%7Cfa007e4b1cc24a8f19aa08d9faf33eb9%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C637816745050436909%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&amp;sdata=4R8R1%2BUeMlOKl1XIVT8WXoUxSH0wGOb33%2BJjFy%2FJEhc%3D&amp;reserved=0
for more assistance.

Hope this helps,

Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET**  \  Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire
Protection Engineer O 612-900-3755 \  M 763-688-4045 \  F
952-229-2923
[email protected]    \  burnsmcd.com
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500  \  Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN
55437 *Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT **NICET IV -
Water-Based Systems Layout



-----Original Message-----
From: Sprinklerforum<[email protected]>
On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 10:06 AM
To:[email protected]
Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL<[email protected]>
Subject: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping

I've got a engineer asking about the joining of grooved stainless to

grooved black carbon steel and if there needs to be a special dielectric or
similar type of assembly used to join the two?

I've been hunting on the interwebs and haven't found any type of

special coupling or should the connection be flanged?

In all my years this is the first time this subject has ever come up.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection |

[email protected]   |
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