I spoke with a technical rep at Ames earlier in the week regarding this question. He stated that in all the time they have been offering their SS In-Building-Riser unit, they have not had one reported instance of system failures or corrosion due to connections between dissimilar materials. He also stated that due to there not having been a problem with the countless installations, they do not require or call for any type of separation assembly. The majority of their units connect to back steel sprinkler piping.
Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | [email protected] | www.jacobs.com 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS -----Original Message----- From: Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Ken Wagoner via Sprinklerforum Sent: Tuesday, March 1, 2022 4:11 PM To: Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum <[email protected]> Cc: Ken Wagoner <[email protected]> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping Gary, Have you spoken with/to the staff at Ames or Zurn regarding this issue? As I noted a day or so ago their in-building riser is indeed stainless steel, and can be purchased with grooved or flanged ends. In most of the sprinkler system reviews I've done where one of these was used it connected directly to a black steel riser in inside the building. I cannot imagine that such a product would not have already encountered a substantial number of failures prompting discontinuation of it's use and manufacture. I also note that according to the data sheets from both Ames and Zurn it is listed by UL, and approved by FM. It seems unlikely to me that neither of those would be current if such issues as you've expressed concerns over were significant. Do you have a specific example of such an issue taking place? If so, I'm aware of a couple of hundred (at least) contractors and a staggering number of AHJ's who would be interested in knowing there's a potential for material failure that no one considered. Any such a failure would place the sprinkler system out of service, and that is something not to be ignored. sincerely, *Ken Wagoner, SET* *Parsley Consulting 500 West Mechanic Street Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235* *Phone: (760) 745-6181 * *Visit the website <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com*2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak0MIyZEIA$ >* On 2/28/2022 4:41 PM, Gary Howard, P. Eng. via Sprinklerforum wrote: > That can be if corrosion buildup adheres to the steel and creates a pacifying > layer. When it is scrubbed off, new metal is exposed and corrosion is faster. > > > Gary Howard, P. Eng., > Consulting Engineer > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > 416-843-1413 > > > > > > >> On Feb 28, 2022, at 4:21 PM, John Denhardt via >> Sprinklerforum<[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I understand Henry. But I did a lot of copper systems in my earlier days. >> I remember seeing corrosion on typical copper/galvanized steel >> plumbing systems but not on steel/copper sprinkler systems. I asked why. >> I was told by a seasoned engineer, the water must be flowing through the >> systems to cause a major issue. The statement to me was, since sprinkler >> water is static, very little corrosion occurs. ????? >> >> *The above is my opinion and has not been processed as a formal >> interpretation in accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee >> Projects. This is provided with the understanding that the AFSA assumes no >> liability for this opinion or actions taken on it and they are not to be >> considered the official position of the **AFSA, and/or NFPA or its >> technical committees.**AFSA cannot provide design or consulting engineering >> services, and this opinion should therefore not be considered, nor relied >> upon, as such.* >> >> Thanks, >> John >> >> John August Denhardt, PE >> *Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services* >> >> *American Fire Sprinkler Association* >> m: p: 301-343-1457 >> 214-349-5965 ext 121 >> w: firesprinkler.org >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak3aTj_euA$ >> > >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://twitter.com/afsa/status/1039528345367732224__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak3lG1Ilgw$ >> > >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak0LqeceKw$ >> > >> >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.instagram.com/firesprinklerorg/__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak0DyIi77A$ >> > >> >> *Our members are at the heart of everything we do.* >> >> >> *Expand your business with ITM.* >> >> Professionalize the role of your inspection team with AFSA’s comprehensive >> 20-month ITM Inspector Development program >> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.firesprinkler.org/itm__;!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak0j5MLT_w$ >> > that provides a blended learning >> environment teamed with robust curriculum created by top industry leaders. >> Now enrolling for Spring 2022! >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 4:02 PM Henry Fontana<[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> John you are correct. You need three things for corrosion to happen a >>> cathode (one metal), an anode (a second metal), and an electrolyte. >>> Without water you have no electrolyte their for no corrosion. So if this >>> system is dry then you have no issue. >>> >>> Henry Fontana >>> Operations Manager (NYC) >>> Johnson Controls Fire Protection >>> 100 Lighting Way Secaucus, NJ 07094 >>> Cell: 201-210-9873 >>> [email protected] >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Sprinklerforum<[email protected]> On >>> Behalf Of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum >>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 2:48 PM >>> To:<[email protected]> < >>> [email protected]> >>> Cc: John Denhardt<[email protected]> >>> Subject: Fwd: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping >>> >>> I am not an expert on this topic. However, I was told the key was >>> corrosion mainly occurs when water flows on a regular basis. With water >>> flowing on a regular basis, corrosion becomes a larger concern. >>> >>> John August Denhardt, P.E. >>> Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services American Fire Sprinkler >>> Association >>> 301-343-1457 >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>>> From: Ken Wagoner via Sprinklerforum >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Date: February 28, 2022 at 1:59:28 PM EST >>>> To:[email protected] >>>> Cc: Ken Wagoner<[email protected]>, "Prahl, Craig/GVL" >>>> <[email protected]>, "Hinson, Ryan"<[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping >>>> Reply-To:[email protected] >>>> >>>> Craig, >>>> >>>> I would ask the question of the engineering staff over at Ames. The >>> number of their stainless steel in-building risers I've seen has been >>> astounding, and they primarily connect to a black steel riser. >>>> I would wager there's been some investigation on their part of that >>> issue. >>>> sincerely, >>>> *Ken Wagoner, SET* >>>> *Parsley Consulting >>>> 500 West Mechanic Street >>>> Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235* >>>> *Phone: (760) 745-6181 * >>>> *Visit the website >>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Flin__;JSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak2MK-oixQ$ >>>> kprotect.cudasvc.com%2Furl%3Fa%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.parsleyconsult >>>> ing.com%252f%26c%3DE%2C1%2CY5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9Zq >>>> W2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_ >>>> n5hDHeK%26typo%3D1&data=04%7C01%7CHenry.Fontana%40jci.com%7Cfa007e >>>> 4b1cc24a8f19aa08d9faf33eb9%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0% >>>> 7C637816745050436909%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQI >>>> joiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=E2bdQ2HHaH0 >>>> C1AmYPNjaVBNxu3d20bIjkNGXtAedvUI%3D&reserved=0>* >>>>> On 2/28/2022 10:21 AM, Hinson, Ryan via Sprinklerforum wrote: >>>>> Craig, >>>>>> From literature I have, SS has an anodic index of approximately 0.60 V >>> while plain CS has that of 0.85 V. >>>>> If the environment in which the joint is located is 'normal' or >>> 'controlled', you shouldn't have a galvanic compatibility issue. If the >>> environment is considered 'harsh', the anodic index delta must be smaller >>> (approximately 0.15 V) in which case, some sort of dielectric >>> fitting/sacrificial anode would be needed for joint longevity. >>>>> As I am not an expert, I suggest reaching out to someone such ashttps:// >>> nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corrosion-doctors.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7CHenry.Fontana%40jci.com%7Cfa007e4b1cc24a8f19aa08d9faf33eb9%7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641%7C0%7C0%7C637816745050436909%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4R8R1%2BUeMlOKl1XIVT8WXoUxSH0wGOb33%2BJjFy%2FJEhc%3D&reserved=0 >>> for more assistance. >>>>> Hope this helps, >>>>> >>>>> Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell Senior Fire >>>>> Protection Engineer O 612-900-3755 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F >>>>> 952-229-2923 >>>>> [email protected] \ burnsmcd.com >>>>> 8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN >>>>> 55437 *Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT **NICET IV - >>>>> Water-Based Systems Layout >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Sprinklerforum<[email protected]> >>>>> On Behalf Of Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum >>>>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 10:06 AM >>>>> To:[email protected] >>>>> Cc: Prahl, Craig/GVL<[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: Joining black carbon steel with stainless steel piping >>>>> >>>>> I've got a engineer asking about the joining of grooved stainless to >>> grooved black carbon steel and if there needs to be a special dielectric or >>> similar type of assembly used to join the two? >>>>> I've been hunting on the interwebs and haven't found any type of >>> special coupling or should the connection be flanged? >>>>> In all my years this is the first time this subject has ever come up. >>>>> >>>>> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | >>> [email protected] | >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.jacobs.com*2F&data=04*7C01*7CHenry.Fontana*40jci.com*7Cfa007e4b1cc24a8f19aa08d9faf33eb9*7Ca1f1e2147ded45b681a19e8ae3459641*7C0*7C0*7C637816745050436909*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000&sdata=AhEUvbWtufk4TAbwDO9jOJgwm0x4EAyPfa*2FFCPXg7xc*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!!B5cixuoO7ltTeg!TvVq2omFOG9ZQ9nkPa8N9_LpJAmAVmOlzoesy0WwEmKqRdUYt2qxpxbOak1Dwc28Kw$ >>>>> 1041 East Butler Road Greenville, South Carolina 29606 >>>>> CONTACT BY: email or MS TEAMS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged >>> information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. 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