Bidder-design project? With ESFR especially you need someone who knows sprinklers on the inside of the project. That person needs to be involved when roof structure options are considered.
Still miss Joe Hankins. Best. Bruce Verhei > On 11/02/2022 1:35 PM Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > Well we all learned something today as I always thought that if you where > in each channel then your good? Looks like the minimum and maximum spacing > requirements still apply. Until we get the 2022 edition of NFPA 13. > > > Thanks for everyone’s input. > > > > Anthony Carrizosa > > Project Manager | Fire Protection > > 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 > > Cell: 206-679-5283 tel:206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593 > tel:253-341-4593 > > https://archerconstruction.com > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1 > > > > From: Ken Wagoner <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 1:30 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > You're right, as I didn't look closely enough. > > §8.4.6.3.1 is fairly clear that if the solid structural members exceed > 12" in depth, ESFR's are to be installed in each channel. > > I am happy to admit that I missed it. > > sincerely, > > Ken Wagoner, SET > Parsley Consulting > 500 West Mechanic Street > Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 > Phone: (760) 745-6181 > Visit the website > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1 > > On 11/2/2022 1:41 PM, Fpdcdesign wrote: > > > > > > If the deflectors are above the bottom of the Tee, then your > > protection will be from a single sprinkler only and not overlapping from > > multiple. How will this impact the effectiveness of ESFR protection? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 2, 2022 at 2:24 PM, <Brian Harris > > > mailto:[email protected] > wrote: > > > > > > Ken- > > > > > > Boy oh boy this just keeps getting better & better. I like > > > your thinking outside the box…. > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > bvssytemsinc.com > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbvssystemsinc.com%2f&c=E,1,ZWsoYIVL_OqSLecR1mFNNc5k4w0j0gpMmvQEwjQJBXqRzWpFRuAR0qy5dthBRwNfX1ExaSCrlhE9TzLi7Ieqrnu016K7KmTo64hRDFIEkWZmVKWYl7E,&typo=1 > > > > > > > > > > > > ** Please “Reply All” To Email Correspondence ** > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ken Wagoner <[email protected]> > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2022 1:17 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > Brian, > > > > > > I've stayed out of this as I watched the progression of the > > > messages cascade. > > > > > > Here's what I see. You have 22" deep concrete tees which > > > create a bay approximately 6' wide. > > > > > > You wish to use ESFR sprinklers, and would prefer not to run > > > a branch line in each bay (which I fully understand). > > > > > > Ok, try this on for size: Select an ESFR pendent with a > > > nominal K of 16.8. Per §8.12.4.1.2, the deflector of that sprinkler is > > > to be positioned a maximum of 14" below the ceiling. Step 1. > > > > > > Take a look at §8.12.5.1.1, regarding obstructions such as > > > "beams", which directs you to table 8.12.5.1.1. If you ran the branch > > > line directly in the middle of one bay, that would make it roughly 3'-0" > > > from the distance to the side of the obstruction (A dimension in the > > > figure). That would permit the deflector to be a maximum of 10" above the > > > bottom of the obstruction. > > > > > > Simple math, 22" deep bay - 14" deflector from ceiling = 8" > > > above bottom of obstruction which conforms to NFPA 13 guidelines. > > > > > > Now there would be some questions regarding the ability of > > > the heat in one bay which doesn't have a sprinkler in it spill over and > > > activate the sprinkler which is possibly 6' away. That's another > > > discussion, probably one worth talking to the manufacturer over. > > > > > > those are my thoughts, > > > > > > Ken Wagoner, SET > > > Parsley Consulting > > > 500 West Mechanic Street > > > Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235 > > > Phone: (760) 745-6181 > > > Visit the website > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1 > > > > > > On 11/2/2022 11:52 AM, Kyle.Montgomery wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I second this, and this is really your only good > > > > option. There’s a reason that they added the language/section to the > > > > new edition. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Kyle M > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Grise <[email protected]> > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 9:49 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected]> > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > Will your AHJ allow protection layouts from newer > > > > versions of NFPA 13? Many of them around where we work will allow them. > > > > They are tested, published design approaches – so AHJ’s are pretty safe > > > > in allowing them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2022 11:45 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt- > > > > > > > > I will definitely look at the FM sheets. Not up to 2022 > > > > edition yet, still on 2013. > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > bvssytemsinc.com > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fbvssystemsinc.com*2f&c=E,1,ERWlk0agTJCb3wBTrywDnsahYT9LRlpPSCsytWZWAShMVLLvxEknNZCse_JZgxKz6hVlCmcSaTDurtkvlQZY1TY2VRgSRZQIH28tNsKzeq_n6A,,&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!IxwVSzqmtCxkK4HPBUdU-KL4qPY1_i7HhruUmzYueGchBJiKtkreQVIMHHo7xY-86oYUajkGuio-yfM$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** Please “Reply All” To Email Correspondence ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Matt Grise <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2022 12:35 PM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > If you look in the 2022 edition of NFPA 13 or in the > > > > most current FM9-8 and 2-0, this construction method is addressed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2022 11:27 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh Boy this gets more complicated as you look closer. > > > > > > > > 8.4.6.3.2 the minimum spacing and area of coverage must > > > > also comply with 8.12.2 and 8.12.3. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Anthony Carrizosa <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 9:23 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > 8.4.6.3.1 > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 9:18 AM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd- > > > > > > > > That’s for bar joist & trusses, not solid tee’s. > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > bvssytemsinc.com > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fbvssystemsinc.com*2f&c=E,1,xS7ZZ1rxIWZCforLiCiwnmb6EoZIWqDW_3D8Mb0nVvN_AMR01crqeZtUPgwOToXggCI-4N2kR8vQ7NEIyFSy4_iGiO-x6jmmDLhZP0MJrcQdipd43is,&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!IxwVSzqmtCxkK4HPBUdU-KL4qPY1_i7HhruUmzYueGchBJiKtkreQVIMHHo7xY-86oYUajkGdcnYEtQ$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** Please “Reply All” To Email Correspondence ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Fpdcdesign <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2022 12:14 PM > > > > To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic > > > > fire sprinklers <[email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > Figure A.8.12.2.2.3 > > > > > > > > > > > > Todd G Williams, PE > > > > > > > > Fire Protection Design/Consulting > > > > > > > > Stonington, CT > > > > > > > > 860-535-2080 tel:860-535-2080 (ofc) > > > > > > > > 860-554-7054 tel:860-554-7054 (fax) > > > > > > > > 860-608-4559 tel:860-608-4559 (cell) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Nov 2, 2022 at 12:11 PM, <Anthony Carrizosa > > > > > mailto:[email protected] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > See 8.12.4.1.6 Sprinklers in each bay between > > > > > beams. The beams act as a baffle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony Carrizosa > > > > > > > > > > Project Manager | Fire Protection > > > > > > > > > > 7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032 > > > > > > > > > > Cell: 206-679-5283 tel:206-679-5283 | Office Dir: > > > > > 253-341-4593 tel:253-341-4593 > > > > > > > > > > https://archerconstruction.com > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2farcherconstruction.com*2f&c=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!IxwVSzqmtCxkK4HPBUdU-KL4qPY1_i7HhruUmzYueGchBJiKtkreQVIMHHo7xY-86oYUajkGwW2_ink$ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Brian Harris <[email protected] > > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2022 8:56 AM > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > Subject: [Sprinklerforum] ESFR Dead Horse > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NFPA-13 (2016) > > > > > > > > > > 8.4.6.3.1 States any solid members over 12” deep > > > > > must have heads in each bay. > > > > > > > > > > 8.4.6.3.2 States to follow minimum spacing rules > > > > > found in 8.12.2 & 8.12.3. Minimum spacing found in 8.12.3.4 calls for > > > > > 8’. > > > > > > > > > > If I’m working on a warehouse with 22” deep > > > > > concrete tee’s spaced on 6’ centers how do I keep my head from > > > > > exploding? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Harris, CET > > > > > > > > > > BVS Systems Inc. > > > > > > > > > > Design Manager > > > > > > > > > > bvssystemsinc.com > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http*3a*2f*2fbvssystemsinc.com*2f&c=E,1,xuRK3Pv85FGIo_r4g79e74oHwnulcLTt0awR_uLPBp7rqmwgys87_moRNbGw7yESM8umDp18gU8pEkJA_gJAPRdY6h0tH7R0-Gyjmt2u2RRxoOVK5cpxdJkz&typo=1__;JSUlJQ!!Ba8_KKAT!IxwVSzqmtCxkK4HPBUdU-KL4qPY1_i7HhruUmzYueGchBJiKtkreQVIMHHo7xY-86oYUajkGvRBrZSE$ > > > > > > > > > > Phone: 704.896.9989 tel:704.896.9989 > > > > > > > > > > Fax: 704.896.1935 tel:704.896.1935 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** Please “Reply All” To Email Correspondence ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https*3a*2f*2flists.firesprinkler.org*2flist*2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,KiBggO_5iE0GT7qn98AayupPChpNR4paIFpM38xkrwJHbeqKaRzw_epNNPLuSYsHH5x5pC0RBHXfZz2v5eCUiTkP719BbcyAw5irm8nj&typo=1__;JSUlJSU!!Ba8_KKAT!IxwVSzqmtCxkK4HPBUdU-KL4qPY1_i7HhruUmzYueGchBJiKtkreQVIMHHo7xY-86oYUajkGRLW9Jec$ > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,nLsXOUs4RcEHAleeJOEOA-2Ml7YyWtGK9XGSw0NHE5B5_TgSaiM7lsjH1p1xyjXSNEIPQTnoEqHZ-AR2DKYQEARfiHZh62AbHYwKvaIOm2wQ4whx&typo=1 > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > > [email protected] > > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > > > > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,rr-bKbqZk5Cd_k7RgO3Zs-rkvbb6XkN5zL2U5eP5fQ7O23JEYKA0HuOzFcfLj_yra7C5Rac5diRjCfWdUusCFyrXgo3YXm2epEnrs1CrmebVIkmxluCGRa3wCA,,&typo=1 > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > > [email protected] > > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > > > > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flists.firesprinkler.org%2flist%2fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&c=E,1,TnQ3L6bYQ2A3FehSH3peTqMuArj3FhZrNCnlPKhbUvqMMkYiM39CNTGhyjjdCUgTkQ-krmHSrKf1j0fRbXL1T2B_8eq8Pmg2FMhS6qdHFVMY4w,,&typo=1 > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to > > [email protected] > > mailto:[email protected] > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > SprinklerForum mailing list: > > https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org > To unsubscribe send an email to > [email protected] >
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