I inadvertently used empty pipe weight per foot below.
The correct load should be:
(16.294 lbs/ft) * 25 ft * 5 + 250 lbs = 2287 lbs
Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
O 612-900-3755 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F 952-229-2923
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> \
burnsmcd.com<http://www.burnsmcd.com/>
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437
*Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout
[cid:[email protected]]
From: Hinson, Ryan <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 3:21 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
<[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pipe Stands
Dennis,
It appears that you have a 25-ft auxiliary system loop of 4" pipe from deck to
grade and back which must be properly supported. I think your reviewing
engineer's concern may justified with how this pipe is supported as you are at
the maximum 25-ft vertical distance between hangers on vertical piping per NFPA
13 (2022) Section 17.4.5.5 and you actually have one 25-ft- and one 23-ft long
vertical pipe stack. Do you have hangers within 2 ft of the top of each of the
drops per Section 17.4.5.1? Even so, this single pipe stand at the base appears
to be supporting twice the normally anticipated pipe stand load due to loading
distribution where the bottom support must be sufficient for the bottom half of
two vertical pipes - totaling approximately 25 ft of 4" water-filled
pipe...which is nearly twice the typical loading of a single support due to
spacing limitations of the same. Assuming Sch 40 pipe, I get the following
load this pipe stand must support:
(10.78 lbs/ft) * 25 ft * 5 + 250 lbs = 1597.5 lbs
It is my opinion that per Section 17.5.1, you must EITHER:
* Use off-the-shelf components in accordance with their listings/listed
loadings per Sections 17.5.2 through 17.5.7 whose listings are further
explained in Section A.17.1.6.1 for the load indicated above.
OR
* Obtain hanger configuration certification from a licensed PE which
includes all the mandates in Section 17.5.1.2.
Hope this helps,
Ryan L. Hinson, PE*, SET** \ Burns & McDonnell
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
O 612-900-3755 \ M 763-688-4045 \ F 952-229-2923
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> \
burnsmcd.com<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.burnsmcd.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7Ca9c87943eaa4444844ab08dae9e2a2a0%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C0%7C638079456999118481%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=4ESyMoqORzQBBe2nQ9O%2Fo4CUgRhO1X6TFPLnZ39K0%2BE%3D&reserved=0>
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437
*Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout
[cid:[email protected]]
From: Dennis Wilson <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 1:53 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
<[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pipe Stands
Thanks ken, I've read the chapter. But this is the architect/engineer from hell.
He has disapproved every submittal from every trade several times over, causing
extreme delays, and everyone is banging their head against the wall.
He wants proof, and I'm not sure how to go about figuring out an equation.
Dennis Wilson
Blackhawk Auto. Sprinklers
Cedar Falls, Iowa
1-319-266-7721
From: Ken Wagoner
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 12:51 PM
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pipe Stands
Dennis,
You did not indicate which edition of -13 is applicable, however some good
supporting information can be found in the 2019 edition in ยง17.5 regarding pipe
stands. Make sure to read all of it, as it allows but does not require
certification by a registered PE.
As I am a principal member of the committee on hanging and bracing, please see
the disclaimer below.
have a safe and Happy New Year to everyone,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235
Phone: (760) 745-6181
Visit the website
<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flinkprotect.cudasvc.com%2Furl%3Fa%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%252f%26c%3DE%2C1%2CY5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK%26typo%3D1&data=05%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7Ca9c87943eaa4444844ab08dae9e2a2a0%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C0%7C638079456999118481%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H%2FQeKKF2j17D5TyS30LND9iKe63WPMgIFF811ftNYe8%3D&reserved=0>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued
pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of
the author and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA
or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither
intended, nor should it be relied upon, to provide professional consultation or
services
It should be noted that the above is my opinion as a member of the NFPA
Automatic Sprinkler System Hanging and Bracing Committee and the Hanging and
Bracing for Fire Suppression Systems Committee in accordance with the NFPA
Regulations Governing Committee Projects and should therefore not be
considered, nor relied upon, as the official position of the NFPA or its
Committees
On 12/29/2022 11:47 AM, Dennis Wilson wrote:
I have a 4" main @ 30' AFF, I drop down w/ 4" to a 12" arm-over then up to a
b'fly va. & Aux. Dry Va., then proceed back up to 28' AFF to feed a dry system.
On the 4x 1'-0" arm-over we installed a pipe stand. (the arm-over is 5-0 above
the floor) We also use clamps to support the drops to the walls.
The engineer is asking for proof that the pipe stand can support the load. This
is install and hasn't fallen is not enough proof.
Anyone have a way this can be done?
Dennis Wilson
Blackhawk Auto. Sprinklers
Cedar Falls, Iowa
1-319-266-7721
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