As much as I dislike taking a different position from you on any issue
Ryan, I see the provisions of §17.4.5.5 quite differently than the one
you've taken.
I believe that what Dennis has told us is that clamps are in place to
support the drops "to the walls". Speculating that those clamps are
roughly halfway down or up each side that would make the distance
between supports less than 25', as it would include the pipe stand.
And now that I review your thoughts carefully, Ryan I do note that if
those clamps are _*not*_ in place then the risers are not supported
properly per §17.4.5.5 as you noted.
How about some further clarification Dennis?
*Ken Wagoner, SET*
*Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235*
*Phone: (760) 745-6181 *
*Visit the website
<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%2f&c=E,1,Y5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK&typo=1>*
On 12/29/2022 3:20 PM, Hinson, Ryan wrote:
Dennis,
It appears that you have a 25-ft auxiliary system loop of 4” pipe from
deck to grade and back which must be properly supported. I think your
reviewing engineer’s concern may justified with how this pipe is
supported as you are at the maximum 25-ft vertical distance between
hangers on vertical piping per NFPA 13 (2022) Section 17.4.5.5 and you
actually have one 25-ft- and one 23-ft long vertical pipe stack. Do
you have hangers within 2 ft of the top of each of the drops per
Section 17.4.5.1? Even so, this single pipe stand at the base appears
to be supporting twice the normally anticipated pipe stand load due to
loading distribution where the bottom support must be sufficient for
the bottom half of two vertical pipes – totaling approximately 25 ft
of 4” water-filled pipe…which is nearly twice the typical loading of a
single support due to spacing limitations of the same. Assuming Sch 40
pipe, I get the following load this pipe stand must support:
(10.78 lbs/ft) * 25 ft * 5 + 250 lbs =
1597.5 lbs
It is my opinion that per Section 17.5.1, you must EITHER:
* Use off-the-shelf components in accordance with their
listings/listed loadings per Sections 17.5.2 through 17.5.7 whose
listings are further explained in Section A.17.1.6.1 for the load
indicated above.
OR
* Obtain hanger configuration certification from a licensed PE which
includes all the mandates in Section 17.5.1.2.
Hope this helps,
*Ryan L. Hinson**, PE*, SET***\ Burns & McDonnell
Associate Fire Protection Engineer
*O*612-900-3755\ *M*763-688-4045 \ *F*952-229-2923
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>\ burnsmcd.com
<http://www.burnsmcd.com/>
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 500 \ Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN 55437
*Registered in: AK, LA, MD, MN, PA, TX, & UT
**NICET IV - Water-Based Systems Layout
*From:* Dennis Wilson <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 1:53 PM
*To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers
<[email protected]>
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pipe Stands
Thanks ken, I’ve read the chapter. But this is the architect/engineer
from hell.
He has disapproved every submittal from every trade several times
over, causing extreme delays, and everyone is banging their head
against the wall.
He wants proof, and I’m not sure how to go about figuring out an equation.
Dennis Wilson
Blackhawk Auto. Sprinklers
Cedar Falls, Iowa
1-319-266-7721
*From:* Ken Wagoner <[email protected]>
*Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 12:51 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Pipe Stands
Dennis,
You did not indicate which edition of -13 is applicable, however some
good supporting information can be found in the 2019 edition in §17.5
regarding pipe stands. Make sure to read all of it, as it allows but
does not require certification by a registered PE.
As I am a principal member of the committee on hanging and bracing,
please see the disclaimer below.
have a safe and Happy New Year to everyone,
*Ken Wagoner, SET*
*Parsley Consulting
500 West Mechanic Street
Harrisonville, Missouri 64701-2235*
*Phone: (760) 745-6181 *
*Visit the website
*
<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flinkprotect.cudasvc.com%2Furl%3Fa%3Dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.parsleyconsulting.com%252f%26c%3DE%2C1%2CY5zKJKPEh1mBEBqSR-VE9cUKl5y-eyP8BpvmE_5j9ZqW2eJbNphYzrCMBZ-2YuX6d-RRkHI4gQ1FV-cvOeCfRC58uZS9NiToZv2mx7909oCqLvCW_n5hDHeK%26typo%3D1&data=05%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C51b9610456774ef27aeb08dae9d66336%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C0%7C638079404371146512%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=PaOTnaQgQl8pM%2BtlKA4GfJNQs%2F1SPTBpBLLgrYaLFjQ%3D&reserved=0>
*IMPORTANT NOTICE: This correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation
issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the
personal opinion of the author and does not necessarily represent the
official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In
addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should it be
relied upon, to provide professional consultation or services
It should be noted that the above is my opinion as a member of the
NFPA Automatic Sprinkler System Hanging and Bracing Committee and the
Hanging and Bracing for Fire Suppression Systems Committee in
accordance with the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects and
should therefore not be considered, nor relied upon, as the official
position of the NFPA or its Committees
*
On 12/29/2022 11:47 AM, Dennis Wilson wrote:
I have a 4” main @ 30’ AFF, I drop down w/ 4” to a 12” arm-over
then up to a b’fly va. & Aux. Dry Va., then proceed back up to 28’
AFF to feed a dry system.
On the 4x 1’-0” arm-over we installed a pipe stand. (the arm-over
is 5-0 above the floor) We also use clamps to support the drops to
the walls.
The engineer is asking for proof that the pipe stand can support
the load. This is install and hasn’t fallen is not enough proof.
Anyone have a way this can be done?
Dennis Wilson
Blackhawk Auto. Sprinklers
Cedar Falls, Iowa
1-319-266-7721
_________________________________________________________
SprinklerForum mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.firesprinkler.org%2Flist%2Fsprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org&data=05%7C01%7Crhinson%40burnsmcd.com%7C51b9610456774ef27aeb08dae9d66336%7Cbfbb9a2b6d994e78b3c795005d555c8b%7C0%7C0%7C638079404371302723%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WiPrrfVsMVSKd8xZufmyENyyzCXuZ%2FLiLDKw1icFg4M%3D&reserved=0>
To unsubscribe send an email [email protected]
_________________________________________________________
SprinklerForum mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
To unsubscribe send an email [email protected]
_________________________________________________________
SprinklerForum mailing list:
https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
