If they’ve got a pull-down hatch and there are provisions for storage – particularly if they sheet the joists to which the ceiling below is attached, then it’s probably intended for use of some sort. But again, this should not be the sprinkler designer or contractor’s call. I would verify if they’re putting any type of floor down, in which case the architect/developer is trapped having to explain that or, if no plywood going down then throw to the AHJ and ask them to confirm that sprinks are or are not required.
You’re on the right track with the indemnification request, but they’ll write that and sue you later if they feel they need to, and they’ll likely sign anything to save a few shekels, so I wouldn’t put too much faith in that approach. Steve L. From: Dapr Jones <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2024 10:50 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13R - Multifamily with attic access So, to update... The architect has deemed this attic to be no storage. Therefore, not requiring sprinklers per NFPA 13R. However, architect has shown a pull-down hatch into the attic inside the 3'rd floor unit, which is on the highest floor. My predicament here is that he's designated the attic "no storage" but at the same time shows an access hatch from the 3'rd floor unit into the attic. My thought is to leave sprinklers out of the attic (since he's designated it no storage) but to get a signed letter that holds the design professional harmless from any fires originated from storage. Please let me know your thoughts. Thank you On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 11:08 AM Steve Leyton <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: This thread has taken on some additional and interesting layers. Building Code §1208 includes the prescriptive requirements for attic access. Basically, if any compartment above the uppermost ceiling of a building has a clear height of more than 30”. Attic compartments are almost always formed by draftstops, and those are almost always installed on one side of the studs that frame demising walls between dwelling units and/or corridors. So even if an attic is not used for storage, and depending on its height and the configuration of draftstops, you may see dozens of attic access panels throughout a multi-family residential building. If it’s a 13R design, sprinkler protection is not required UNLESS… The situation described does in fact complicate the assessment of building height by number of stories. The IBC does not specify or even infer when an attic might be considered a story, but there are state amendments and there almost certainly would be a subjective ruling by the local building official about when an attic intended for storage might be considered a story. Some of the state amendments I found in a quick search included conditions where the ceiling height meets the requirements for clearance (in both the building and mechanical codes), or where the floor area of the attic makes up more than a threshold percentage of the overall area of the floor below. However, if it’s a story, then it would require two means of egress, which almost certainly would blow up the design of a building that is intended to be a 3-story R2. In the specific situation we’re discussing here, if the attic (or a portion) has a floor assembly engineered for load, and adequate ceiling height for access or use, it must be fire sprinklered per 13R; the attic exception is for unused spaces only as others have noted. What your describing doesn’t sound like a 4th story to me, but it’s ultimately up to the building official. My opinion only, Steve L. From: Dapr Jones <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2024 7:39 AM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13R - Multifamily with attic access Thanks. Yes I see now that sprinklers would definitely be required if the tenant has access to the attic. Follow up- You can't just install a wet pipe system up there if you add heaters to the attic can you? NFPA 13R has special requirements (from what I understand) for sprinklers in attic where it's not as simple as wet pipe with space heaters. Let me know if you agree that's the case. Thank you On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 9:09 AM <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I suggest a careful reading of 6.6.6 in 13R. While a 13D system ignores storage in attics, 13R does not allow the same considerations. Appropriately, I think Todd means, if the area becomes a “Story” or not as defined in IBC. Then it would be treated like a dwelling unit. Otherwise, you are running into an area outside the dwelling unit and get kicked back to 13 for Design. My observation on limited data. R/ Matt Matthew J. Willis, CWBSP, C.E.T. Ferguson Fire Design, LLC D: (602) 337-0721<http://(602)%20337-0721> C: (307) 236-8249<http://(307)%20236-8249> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> From: Dapr Jones <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2024 8:52 PM To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: NFPA 13R - Multifamily with attic access Caution: This email originated from outside of the organization. DO NOT click links or open attachments unless you recognize and trust the sender. ________________________________ Thanks Todd, much appreciated. Yes, it would still be 13R I agree. When you say " it would need to be appropriately protected" do you mean the attic would need to be sprinklered? It would become accessible to the tenant and they would likely use it for storage. Does 13R allow omission of sprinklers only for attics not used for storage? On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 1:42 PM Fpdcdesign <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: As far as access, attic access could be allowed unless prohibited by Building Code or other restriction (ie zoning approval). However, since it is accessible for living space or storage, it would need to be appropriately protected. Even then, it could be considered 4 stories instead of 3 and it would still be 13R. Todd Williams Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860-608-4559 On Jul 28, 2024 at 1:31 PM, <Dapr Jones<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I'm working on a project that is 3 stories with attic, multifamily residential, type VA construction. We designed the system to NFPA 13R, with no sprinklers in the attic. Now the architect wants to add access to the attic for the 3'rd floor tenant. (note, there's only one tenant on the 3rd fl. of this building) My question is, can the architect actually allow access to the attic for a tenant in a multifamily as far as the building or fire codes are concerned? If yes, would sprinklers be required in the attic in this case? (considering tenant will likely use it as storage) Thanks _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> _________________________________________________________ SprinklerForum mailing list: https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
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