Hey David -
anyone who goes through the trouble to write a three page essay on a
license suggestion is OK in my book, how does the Python Software
Foundation license sound ?
Also, do we have any concerns about licensing of the various adapters
SQLAlchemy includes ? cx_oracle, pysqlite seem pretty open, MySQL/
Python is on the CNRI Python License (not sure how that differs from
PSF ...) and psycopg seems like its on some GPL with extra language.
On Dec 30, 2005, at 10:17 AM, David Pratt wrote:
Hi Michael. I really like the idea of dual licensing. It was
something I had also suggested for SQLObject a while back but it
was too late. There are many fine resources that have opted for
this approach. I have not had very much exposure to the MPL in
relation to python but it is worrisome since like LGPL these is
much language and as a result, many more possible interpretations.
On the issue of a super sqlalchemy, I think here there is only one
that could possibly be super. This would be the one advanced and
supported by an active community of developers (not a one off horse
that wants to race on the backs of the core developer(s)). That
said, removing any barriers to use could easily make this the
leading python ORM since the python community is screaming for
something really good to work with that is as easy as working with
the python language itself.
One thing that comes to mind about MPL is that the issue of what
constitutes a modification will continue to be debated and it is
difficult to anticipate all use cases for python. For example, does
the sql generated from from library become a modification? Does the
need to embed the library in a wxPython app and somehow link the
files now create an issue for the developer to contribute the code
back. How about assembling things together in an egg etc or
importing parts of the library in your code. I believe this is
still fairly grey because of the dynamic nature of python itself. I
believe this is why python itself has stayed with a very simple
license and very simple language.
As far as I am concerned MPL and LGPL licenses have far too much
language - period. The more language that is contained in the
license itself, the more it can be interpreted and constued. The
iterations of any interpretation is only multiplied by the volume
of legalese. Let's face it, we are not lawyers, we are developers.
It would be good if the python principles could be applied to
licensing as well. At least the parts concerning simplicity and
making things plain and understandable. The fact is most of these
licenses have almost no legal precedent in the first place that
makes this even more confounding.
For myself, the last place I want to be is in front of a client
some years down the road advising them that their project must be
contributed back on something they paid me for because of a recent
court ruling. I have made deliberate efforts not to draw my clients
into any sort of issues that could bite them in the ass some time
down the road. I am also their guide as well, more so for small
clients.
One thing I am really hoping for is that someone will step up to
the plate without the fear of loss of the code to some corporate
giant. I don't feel this is realistic and unfounded. Django, Ruby
and Turbogears are all examples of excellent projects that have
demonstrated their is nothing to fear by making a deliberate effort
to license liberally. Why? Because it draws people together and has
demonstrated it can provide a long term sustainable base of
support. Keep in mind this is a library not a consumer product and
your audience is developers. What developer would pay 299 for a
library that is open and supported best by its own community? I
feel this library has some very excellent potential and feel that
BSD, MIT or python license would give the project the best traction
and a real future.
What has really disappointed me over the past years has been to see
the initial propagation of some really good projects and ideas only
to see them left unsupported and die a slow death on sourceforge.
As a result, they are left out of main stream python programming
and fade into oblivion instead of seeing their full potential
realized.
I mean look at the array of small projects out their in any
particular area, any of which do not get adequate attention and as
a result never get beyond a few of the core developers until they
move on to something that is more stimulating or abandoned because
there just is not enough momentum behind the project.
The ORM area is very much like this. Perhaps the biggest attention
getter here is SQLObject. You only need to look at the mailing list
here to see that licensing is a concern for use in commercial
projects. Unfortunately, statements of intent do not give me very
much comfort and the author of this project had also indicated that
he would never choose this sort of license if he could do things
over again. I will not use the library because of the licensing and
will not put my clients at risk. Further, it is just too far gone
for this type of change to occur realistically. This gets to be
extremely difficult afterwards since you must have the agreement of
everyone that has contributed code.
The Django db api another example. lt is licensed in a way that is
creating positive change even as I write this. This project has
attracted a strong following of those that are interested in making
it excellent over time incrementally. As it stands, the release of
1.0 has not arrived but there are now sweeping changes being made
to the api and Django's management interfaces as a result of the
involvement and feedback of a strong community to make it better.
It is a demonstration of good will and communtiy gettting behind
something better for everyone in the long term.
Turbogears is another good example with a philosophy of striving
for the best of the best and using existing projects. I was reading
Kevin Dangoor's blog before Christmas and it was inspiring to see
what is happening with this project. It is bringing together many
of the ideas I am speaking of. On top of it you are getting synergy
from the communities of developers from each project. For example,
people from cherrypy, or Mochi and others. As a result, you are
seeing a real demonstration of the perpetuation of an excellent
combination of projects with liberal licensing. Originally Django
was ahead of TurboGears for community. I am on both lists and the
volume of people involved with turbogears has well surpassed Django
in the past months.
In anycase, I prefaced my mail by indicating inquring about license
change to SQLObject list. I wanted to use this in my sql projects
a while back since this is an effective ORM and I have experimented
with it and it is works very well (and this is something really
needed for python generally). For SQLObject it was too late to
change, but for your project it is not.
I believe this project has the potential to make a large impact for
python programming and really hope you consider not the MPL but
BSD, MIT or python license instead. My feeling is that you would
not be disappointed since it would draw many to this work to
improve this ORM and see it rise to its full potential without any
shades of grey around a verbose license license that inhibits its use.
Regards,
David
Michael Bayer wrote:
Glad you asked, I already have been looking into migrating to a
dual LGPL/MPL license, where you can select either one. I
believe the MPL should get around the ambiguity of the C-ish
language still present in the LGPL.
the MPL is at: http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/MPL-1.1.html
With regards to copyleft, the FAQ has this to say:
How 'viral' is the MPL? If I use MPLed code in my proprietary
application, will I have to give all the source code away?
The MPL has a limited amount of 'copyleft' - more copyleft
than the BSD family of licenses, which have no copyleft at all,
but less than the LGPL or the GPL. It is based around the
definition of a 'Modification' in the license [1.9].
What is a Modification? Any changes to MPLed files, or new
files into which MPLed code has been copied, are Modifications
and so fall under the MPL. New files containing only your code
are not Modifications, and not covered by the MPL.
Files which fall under the MPL because they are or contain
Modifications must be made available as detailed in the license
(or elsewhere in this FAQ.) Other files may be kept proprietary.
One well-known example of this is the Netscape-branded
browser. It contains (and Netscape makes source code available
for) many files from the Mozilla project, which are under the
MPL. But it also contains proprietary code, for example to
integrate with the AOL Instant Messenger service.
i am hoping this license will meet the needs of the commercial
community (because yeah, that is a big target for this thing)
while still keeping SQLAlchemy free and open (because I dont want
some compelling "Super-SQLAlchemy" to sell for $299 a developer
seat). Let me know how that works for you.
On Dec 29, 2005, at 10:36 PM, David Pratt wrote:
I have read with interest about sqlalchemy project, however the
licensing for the project is a concern to me. Byte compiling
makes the lgpl licensing ambiguous when it comes to python.
There is also too much language concerning the issue of
compiling in the lgpl that confounds the use of sqlalchemy in
the development of compiled desktop applications.
If the intent is to create a broadly accessible and successful
python library and ORM, I am hoping the license for the project
can be reviewed and at the very least reconsidered. A BSD, MIT
or python license basically permits the library to be used in
the widest sense - as braod as python itself - while ensuring
credit is given to the copyright holder(s).
This looks like an interesting project and a library I would
like to have available in my python toolbox. I believe the best
way of getting sqlachemy used in projects is for the licensing
to be comparable to python's licensing itself so it is not an
issue to consider whether it will be used (as opposed to
rejecting it for business applications where companies are more
sensitive about mixing with anything gplish).
I am not interested in a holy war over licensing since there can
be fairly strong view on either side. I am interested in useful
ORM that I can use on a routine basis to wrap sql in an nice way
for python without tripping over the license when developing
for business clients.
Regards,
David
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