Hi Pete, I don't claim to be an expert at all, but I can tell you what was used in Conrail (which are mainly the PRR standards) when I was working there. There was no cant to the rail, and the locomotives arrived with no taper on the treads. I ran GG-1 locomotives where the wheel treads had worn convex, yet we still ran them at the "scheduled" 90 miles per hour...and at times we stole some on that speed. I still have a standard Wheel and Coupler gauge that was used by inspectors when condemning out of spec wheels. There where "Go, No-Go" radius gauges for the flange radii, and there was a Go & No Go gauge for flange thickness. Places to measure rim thickness and length of flat spots. But, nothing whatsoever to measure the taper of the tread. There was a "depth" limit for the amount the tire or wheel could be grooved. Keith
> -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:sslivesteam- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 3:27 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] Wheel Taper - rail angle? > > >The reason real railroads have eliminated the coned tread of locomotives is > > traction. The contact{ are} AREA is greater when the wheel is contacting > > the rail across the whole tread, where as the cone wheel has a very tiny > > contact area, which gives you a MUCH better chance to slip! > > I don't think it is quite that simple, as I believe the rails were canted inwards at the same > angle as the wheel taper? And also (just to add to the confusion) the possibly tiny contact > area has much greater force acting on it (lbs/sq-in) so it offers adhesion almost as good as > the larger contact patch? > > However, the PRR Standard Plans on railfan.net don't show any such tilt/camber so I guess > I'm wrong. > http://prr.railfan.net/standards/standards.cgi?plan=56773-- > (Lots of good stuff on that collection - the index link is at the bottom, if you don't already > have it bookmarked.) > > Pete > 410-533-4219 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 3:00 PM > Subject: SSLiveSteam Digest, Vol 15, Issue 17 > > > Send SSLiveSteam mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://postfix.45mm.com/mailman/listinfo/sslivesteam > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of SSLiveSteam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: O gauge wheel profile (Tom Jones) > 2. Re: O gauge wheel profile (Keith Taylor) > 3. Re: O gauge wheel profile (Sam) > 4. Re: O gauge wheel profile (Mike Chaney) > 5. Re: Wheel taper ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) > 6. Re: Wheel taper (Keith Taylor) > 7. Re: Wheel taper (Keith Taylor) > 8. Dezincification of brass (Jeffrey Williams) > 9. Re: O gauge wheel profile - Off List (Tom Jones) > 10. (no subject) (Arthur S. Cohen) > 11. Fw: (Arthur S. Cohen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 14:06:29 -0700 > From: "Tom Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > I didn't think to mention it until I had seen Sam's question, but this will > be garden based. > > Sam- > > Thanks for you info. I will be looking into it right away. Also, I am not > sure if I am misunderstanding your reply or not, but I was refering to > 'L.B.S.C' the man. In one of his design booklets for an O gauge locomotive, > he had his preference for the wheel profile. > > Keith- > > Thanks for the input! Strangley enough I have heard of no coneing on the > tread before for both prototypes and models. It will be interesting to see > if there is an outcry or not. :) > > Once again, thanks for the input! > > -Mitchell > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from > Microsoft Office Live > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:26:23 -0500 > From: "Keith Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile > To: "'Small-scale live steam discussions'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Mike, > How did you measure that 3 degree taper? > And....I said folks would get upset! > Still, in over 46 years of live steaming, I never saw a track damaged by a > cylindrical wheel tread. Amtrak and every Class 1 road in the US are buying > locomotives with cylindrical treads, and they run the Acela trains at 150 > miles per hour. > Keith > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:sslivesteam- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Chaney > > Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:21 PM > > To: Small-scale live steam discussions > > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile > > > > Keith Taylor wrote:- > > > > >.... A 3? taper over the tiny tread of an "O" scale wheel is > > > pracitally impossible to see, much less machine.Trying to > > > set over the compound on most lathes to cut a 3? coning > > > of the tread would be tough too, as the graduations on the > > > lathes probably aren't accurate enough to bother. > > > > What utter nonsense! My eyes are 67 years old and I can see the taper > quite > > clearly. I've also spent the last three days machining a batch of wheels > - > > with a three degree taper - and had no difficulty setting the compound > slide > > to within a sensible (about one quarter of a degree) tolerance. > > > > Mike Chaney > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > SSLiveSteam mailing list > > Send messages: [email protected] > > Cancel subscription: http://postfix.45mm.com/mailman/listinfo/sslivesteam > > Rules: http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam_guide.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:23:51 +0000 > From: Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile > To: Small-scale live steam discussions <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Tom Jones wrote: > > > > Thanks for you info. I will be looking into it right away. Also, I am not > > sure if I am misunderstanding your reply or not, but I was refering to > > 'L.B.S.C' the man. In one of his design booklets for an O gauge locomotive, > > he had his preference for the wheel profile. > > > Tom > > Yes I know that LBSC was 'Curly' Lawrence, an ex LBSC fireman hence the > pseudonym. His wheel standards are not NECESSARILY relevant today. It > depends on what track you intend to run on. Modern Coarse O in UK uses > a btb of 28mm with a flange root width of 1.5 mm running on track with a > flangeway of 2.2mm. Technically the flange depth should be 1.5mm but > 16mm modellers tend to use 2mm as this allows the use of the same > (GIMRA) wheel profile for 32mm and 45mm gauges while retaining the same > scale. > > Sam E > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:04:54 -0000 > From: "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile > To: "Small-scale live steam discussions" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Keith asked:- > > > How did you measure that 3 degree taper? > > I didn't. I machined it. > > First, I set the compound slide cutting parallel - this took a little time, > but I only had to do it once, which when I commissioned the lathe. Then I > noted the error on the degree scale, which was 1/4 degree clockwise. When > setting the slide, I allow for that error assuming that, the machine being > British made, the graduations had been engraved accurately. > > After that, it's all down to eyesight and craftsmanship. > > Mike > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 17:50:25 EST > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] Wheel taper > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > My understanding of wheel taper (And I may be full of B.S., but this is what > I have read) is to allow trains to navigate curves without excessive wheel > slip. As centrifugal force causes the wheel set to move to the outside of the > curve the larger diameter of the tread is contacting the rail on the larger > diameter, while the inner wheel is riding on its smaller diameter. This > lessens wheel slip and I presume that on 1=1 scale (full size) that railroads > set > minimum curve radius to suit on mainline practice. Look at the steep taper on > a Lionel 027 wheel compared to the slight taper on a fine scale wheel. > > I have two kinds of wheels on my 3.5 gauge stuff, one set has each wheel > with a brass bushing so the wheels can rotate independent of what his brother on > > the other end of the axle is doing. The other sets of wheels each wheel is > press fitted on the axle so where "Righty" goes, "Lefty" must follow along. > Next time I am out at the shop will check and see if either, both or which ever > > has taper and which don't. I have seen no difference in the wheel sets to > stay on the track over my 20' radius curves. > > Of course on a rod driven locomotive the wheels must be secured to each axle > to keep the valve gear working properly. > > On my lathe (Sear's Atlas, 12 inch) I have no problem turning the slight 3 > degree taper by setting over the compound to three degrees. Or it could be done > by a file on our small wheels with a template to see where we are in the > process. The wheels must be made to the same diameter, coned or flat within as > close a limit as you can manage so both sides work the same. What I have done > and seen recommended is to "rough" turn all your wheels first, then set up to > finish each wheel at the same settings on your cross slide and compound. > When I have done cast iron wheels I use a carbide bit to dig under the cast > iron > "skin" then when all wheels in the set are rough turned leaving a few thous > for finishing change to a HSS tool with the root radius between tread and > flange ground in. Then set up a mandrel to take each wheel running true on its > axis and take off the final few thous and put in the taper and touch the outer > rim with a file to just barely round it over. Also use a file to radius the > top of the flange, but I don't think that is too important, but I presume a > special ground tool or jig would do that more evenly. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://postfix.45mm.com/pipermail/sslivesteam/attachments/20061128/de2a0d4e/ attachmen > t.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:18:07 -0500 > From: "Keith Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] Wheel taper > To: "'Small-scale live steam discussions'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:sslivesteam- > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > My understanding of wheel taper (And I may be full of B.S., but this is > what > > I have read) is to allow trains to navigate curves without excessive wheel > > slip. As centrifugal force causes the wheel set to move to the outside of > the > > curve the larger diameter of the tread is contacting the rail on the > larger > > diameter, while the inner wheel is riding on its smaller diameter. This > > lessens wheel slip and I presume that on 1=1 scale (full size) that > railroads set > > minimum curve radius to suit on mainline practice. > > Basically that is true, but the difference in diameter over a 3 degree taper > of a wheel a couple inches in diameter is negligible. And, since most garden > lines use brass or nickel silver rail, that would wear long before the wheel > tread wore! The amount of wheel slip due to now using wheels of constant > diameter wasn't enough for "real railroads" to bother with coned treads > anymore. Class 1 roads use a spiral leading into the curve and > superelevation to eliminate the wheel slip issues. > > Look at the steep taper on > > a Lionel 027 wheel compared to the slight taper on a fine scale wheel. > > Tinplate is an entirely different application, as they run on tubular rail, > not rail of scale profile. The wheel tread is actually the flange on Lionel > trains. > > Basically if you want to put a 3 degree taper on the wheels for accuracy > reasons...fine. But to a beginner building his first steam locomotive > doesn't need to worry if his wheel are EXACTLY a three degree taper. In > fact....if he builds his locomotive with parallel wheel treads, it will run > and track as well as those with a three degree taper. The reason real > railroads have eliminated the coned tread of locomotives is traction. The > contact are is greater when the wheel is contacting the rail across the > whole tread, where as the cone wheel has a very tiny contact area, which > gives you a MUCH better chance to slip! For me....I'll take all the traction > I can get on my models. > > Keith > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:31:50 -0500 > From: "Keith Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] Wheel taper > To: "'Small-scale live steam discussions'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Fingers got away from me again. I wrote: > >The reason real railroads have eliminated the coned tread of locomotives is > traction. The > > contact{ are} AREA is greater when the wheel is contacting the rail across > the > > whole tread, where as the cone wheel has a very tiny contact area, which > > gives you a MUCH better chance to slip! For me....I'll take all the > traction > > I can get on my models. > > I wrote ARE, when I meant AREA in the above passage. > > Keith > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 18:30:51 -0800 > From: Jeffrey Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [SSLiveSteam] Dezincification of brass > To: Live steam list <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > My "ancient" copy (1961 edition) of the American Society of Metals > Handbook, Vol 1. describes the dezincification of brass as: > > "Copper-zinc alloys containing more than 15% zinc are susceptible to a > corrosion process called dezincification. This type of corrosion does > not occur in aluminum bronze and cupro-nickel, because they do not > contain zinc. The initial attack is followed by a secondary reaction in > which the copper in the corrosion product is redeposited in a porous, > friable and weak mass on the metal surface. Corrosion of a similar > nature continues beneath the primary deposit of copper, resulting in a > gradual replacement of sound metal by weakened porous copper. Action > of this kind, unless arrested, eventually penetrates the metal, > weakening it structurally and resulting in leakage of liquids or gasses > through the porous layer....the dezincification usually occurs when > brasses are in contact with waters that have high oxygen and carbon > dioxide content....dezincification is not usually a serious problem > since red brass, admiralty and aluminum brass containing inhibitors of > dezincification can be used where this form of corrosion has been > experienced or is anticipated." > > This indicates that brass with less than 15% zinc isn't a problem in our > applications in live steam boilers. McMaster-Carr > (http://www.mcmaster.com/) lists a number of bronze and brass shapes for > pretty reasonable prices that could be easily machined and safely used. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 06:41:07 -0700 > From: "Tom Jones" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile - Off List > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > Sam- > > I did misunderstand your first email. I am sure that with what you have > given me I will do just fine! > > Once again thanks! > > -Mitchell > > > >From: Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Reply-To: Small-scale live steam discussions <[email protected]> > >To: Small-scale live steam discussions <[email protected]> > >Subject: Re: [SSLiveSteam] O gauge wheel profile > >Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:23:51 +0000 > > > >Tom Jones wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks for you info. I will be looking into it right away. Also, I am > >not > > > sure if I am misunderstanding your reply or not, but I was refering to > > > 'L.B.S.C' the man. In one of his design booklets for an O gauge > >locomotive, > > > he had his preference for the wheel profile. > > > > > >Tom > > > >Yes I know that LBSC was 'Curly' Lawrence, an ex LBSC fireman hence the > >pseudonym. His wheel standards are not NECESSARILY relevant today. It > >depends on what track you intend to run on. Modern Coarse O in UK uses > >a btb of 28mm with a flange root width of 1.5 mm running on track with a > >flangeway of 2.2mm. Technically the flange depth should be 1.5mm but > >16mm modellers tend to use 2mm as this allows the use of the same > >(GIMRA) wheel profile for 32mm and 45mm gauges while retaining the same > >scale. > > > >Sam E > >_______________________________________________ > >SSLiveSteam mailing list > >Send messages: [email protected] > >Cancel subscription: http://postfix.45mm.com/mailman/listinfo/sslivesteam > >Rules: http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam_guide.html > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://get .live.co > m/messenger/overview > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:38:04 -0600 > From: "Arthur S. Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [SSLiveSteam] (no subject) > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > There's been discussion about bronze components not standing up to live ste= > am. Let me first tell you that all bronzes and brasses are copper alloys. = > The problem Is the bronze being for brazed on connections are of unknown c= > omposition. The bronze that should be used is an alloy identified as C92 3= > 00. It's made up of 88 Cu, 6 Sn, 1.5 pb, and 4.5 zn. All numbers of elem= > ents are %s. This material is used for high pressure steam connections and= > valves and should work with the low pressures we use. I imagine the probl= > em of why some connection fail while others don't is because the brass or b= > ronzes used are not know for their alloy. They are usually left over small= > pieces of materials of unknown origin. I have no idea as to where the cor= > rect material can be obtained in the States. > > Arthur---Mexico City > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://postfix.45mm.com/pipermail/sslivesteam/attachments/20061129/866= > 4730a/attachment.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:38:54 -0600 > From: "Arthur S. Cohen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [SSLiveSteam] Fw: > To: [email protected] > Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > ----- Original Message ----- = > > From: Arthur S. Cohen = > > To: [email protected] = > > Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:38 PM > > > There's been discussion about bronze components not standing up to live ste= > am. Let me first tell you that all bronzes and brasses are copper alloys. = > The problem Is the bronze being for brazed on connections are of unknown c= > omposition. The bronze that should be used is an alloy identified as C92 3= > 00. It's made up of 88 Cu, 6 Sn, 1.5 pb, and 4.5 zn. All numbers of elem= > ents are %s. This material is used for high pressure steam connections and= > valves and should work with the low pressures we use. I imagine the probl= > em of why some connection fail while others don't is because the brass or b= > ronzes used are not know for their alloy. They are usually left over small= > pieces of materials of unknown origin. I have no idea as to where the cor= > rect material can be obtained in the States. > > Arthur---Mexico City > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://postfix.45mm.com/pipermail/sslivesteam/attachments/20061129/b3e= > fef23/attachment.html > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > SSLiveSteam mailing list > [email protected] > http://postfix.45mm.com/mailman/listinfo/sslivesteam > > > End of SSLiveSteam Digest, Vol 15, Issue 17 > ******************************************* > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free > access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://postfix.45mm.com/pipermail/sslivesteam/attachments/20061129/a44f8536/ attachment > .html > _______________________________________________ > SSLiveSteam mailing list > Send messages: [email protected] > Cancel subscription: http://postfix.45mm.com/mailman/listinfo/sslivesteam > Rules: http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam_guide.html _______________________________________________ SSLiveSteam mailing list Send messages: [email protected] Cancel subscription: http://postfix.45mm.com/mailman/listinfo/sslivesteam Rules: http://www.45mm.com/sslivesteam_guide.html
