OK, Colin Percival just announced 15.0-PRERELEASE - yet the PKGBASE concept -
besides 'kinda working' - does not holds to the POLA principle at all - and if
anyone will chose to use PKGBASE instead of 'classic' install the 'pkg delete
-af' will not only delete all the third party packages but will also WIPE
almost ENTIRE BASE SYSTEM of FreeBSD ... this is not unacceptable to say the
least.
My 'vote' here does not changed.
Lets keep pkg(8) for third party packages with:
- /etc/pkg
- /usr/local/etc/pkg
- /var/db/pkg
Lets have pkgbase(8) for FreeBSD Base System PKGBASE with:
- /etc/pkgbase
- /usr/local/etc/pkgbase
- /var/db/pkgbase
Its literally the same 'separation' as the Base System for binaries:
- /bin
- /usr/bin
- /sbin
- /usr/sbin
And /usr/local PREFIX for third party packages as:
- /usr/local/bin
- /usr/local/sbin
Regards,
vermaden
Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
Data: 2025-08-07 2:10
Nadawca: "Sulev-Madis Silber"
<freebsd-current-freebsd-org...@ketas.si.pri.ee>
Adresat: freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org;
>
>> what linux distros do here? extra options to avoid
deleting the basic things like kernel and minimal userland utils? if you
happen to make way too broad package deletion. i don't think linux
sysadmins want it either. even if you consider linux moving faster and with
less seatbelts ("allow shit like that" (c) vermaden). it's not pkg fault it
does wipe system clean if you asked it. also, des@ reminded me that pkg
replaced older tracking system 12 years ago. yet, i see pkg production
versions being released just recently with a bug that user immediately
notices. it was fixed because oops humans make mistakes. but it would be a
horror if pkg does those things when it manages the entire system. granted,
you can always boot at least external media when any "nuclear" pkg update
comes out. this one wasn't but... and one could say that pkgbase is
extensively discussed everywhere. but we still have discussions like this
here. even fights. what if you miss all those? i never knew 32bit is on the
way out until i happened to randomly read that warning from kernel boot
log. there are number of those things in fbsd. happened earlier, happened
lately. maybe it's inevitable. were you scared to install new major version
like 5 or 13 right away because who knows what will happen? luckily there
are 2, sometimes 3 majors to choose from should some of them include rushed
in late changes that turned out to be buggy. it feels like it got worse
lately. i mean more changes, more breaks. i don't know why this isn't
confined to current or stable. those are annoying type of changes.
hopefully pkgbase will not be switched on before it's done. but pkg for
ports still has issues and it's now default package manager here. feels
like too much hassle. there are many changes, i mean. good, but extra fuzz.
drm for gpus, wifi driver changes, wifi adapter firmware loading changes.
all with somebody complaining that (s)he didn't know there was breaking
change. i don't have had reason to run -af and not checking either but if
you had habit of doing that, it would be similar to rm ~ catching the /
along too. unsure what the fix is. (userland) utils and kernel printing it
out to console? over longer period of time? i mean i could understand that
change was discussed "everywhere", meetings, mailing lists. it would still
be missed. if i make something, which i only tried once, and publish it, i
would never expect them to be aware of changes i make. because release
notes, changelogs, those don't get attention. and you can still miss stuff.
i once told that correct procedure is to check everything throughly and
then upgrade, but i have passed this myself often. and have gotten
"fallouts" too. in fbsd the only thing i would need to stand back, squint
and duck is when booting new current. when pkgbase gets out in installer,
i expect it to still have issues and i would rather stand back and watch
this "nuke" going off. because it does make radical changes. one of most
wtf is that now one needs to deal /etc in new ways. and if those differ
from mergemaster or etcupdate, it would make somebody mad. perhaps even
worse than i could. in my mind, changes are good. if they are reasonable.
and known. probably knowing is biggest issue. what if one misses all those
10 different places? i never checked, does freebsd-update tell that pkgbase
is coming? does buildworld, maybe installworld tell that? that i actually
used and i don't see it. because those are like places where you see it. i
can't recall if ports warned of pkgng coming soon? i also prefer if those
messages would include plans and not final decisions to make a change. i
haven't tries pkgbase myself, maybe i will, maybe i don't. unsure what fix
is. maybe start putting things right into where everyone sees it. unsure.
and if i were you, whoever leads pkgbase initiative in "high castle" (it
does feel like this!), i would not let users delete base with -af. it's
rather unusual anyway and i don't think not deleting would get people as
mad as deleting stuff. i can't recall what was it, was it repo manager on
linux distro or something else but something wanted you to write whole
sentence, observing caps and so on. then it executed that irreversible
operation. in my systems, i've been configured things to ask date & times
when i really wanted to not do anything stupid. that would get somebody's
brain working and maybe they interrupt their autopilot mode if they didn't
actually want it. trust me, deleting freebsd-kernel, removing freebsd-bin,
pkg-bootstrap... isn't what you want to see, then it's too late. and yes,
add echos to installworld end and freebsd-update if it's not there already
because that's what people see
>
>
>
> On August 7, 2025 1:21:32 AM GMT+03:00, vermaden
wrote:
>>So You still do not understand ...
>>
>>The pkg(8) command works fine - its just NOT SUPPOSE to DESTROY most
of the FreeBSD Base System - because FreeBSD is not Linux to allow shit
like that ...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Temat: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature
>>Data: 2025-08-07 0:13
>>Nadawca: "Ceri Davies" <c...@submonkey.net>
>>Adresat: "vermaden" <verma...@interia.pl>;
>>DW: freebsd-pkgb...@freebsd.org; freebsd-...@freebsd.org;
freebsd-curr...@freebsd.org; freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org;
>>
>>
>>
>>>> On 6 Aug 2025, at 22:54, vermaden wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it has the same behaviour.
>>>>
>>>> English is not my primary language so I will try to explain in
more
>>simple words as you probably did not understood.
>>>>
>>>> NOPE.
>>>>
>>>> It DOES NOT has the same behavior.
>>>
>>> In each case it forcibly deletes all the packages from your system,
>>like you asked.
>>>
>>> I understood you fine, I just disagree that this is a shocking
result
>>when you have specified the “all” and “force” flags. In fact
it is
>>exactly what that command is documented to do and therefore is very
far
>>from a violation of the principle of least astonishment.
>>>
>>> Ceri
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
