https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-01-19?p=h#2022-01-19-7d46738f10328167
Georg wishes to add an AOB item to talk about the proposed XEPs before he votes on them; a huge discussion erupts [1], causing hours of mayhem. 1) Roll Call Present: Travis, Jonas, Georg, Larma, Daniel 2) Agenda Bashing Daniel notes Georg's earlier desire to add an AOB item, but since it affects pending votes (which would come before AOB) then it should be discussed now - Georg thinks the monster discussion already covered most of it, but would like to give a summary of his thoughts. Georg notes that three of the proposed XEPs from two weeks ago covered ground already proposed/implemented in other XEPs. "Message Replies" is yet another mechanism to reference messages, in addition to References, Fastening, and so on, but Georg thinks it adds UX value and will probably play well with some kind of revised fallback, so is generally in favour, though slightly hesitant due to the message referencing mess. "Compatibility Fallbacks" provides additional semantics to XEP-0428 (Fallback Indication) with a similar title - with Dave's agreement on merging the two and dealing with security considerations along the way, Georg thinks it's better to reject this one. "Call Invites" overlaps XEP-0353 (Jingle Message Initiation) very much and it wasn't made clear why that couldn't be used; the discussion clarified the points and reinforced Georg's feeling that it should be merged into 0353 to focus on calls (both one-to-one and groups) and not have a dedicated wire protocol for the same UX semantics. Georg thanks everybody for the productive discussion and helping to make up his mind. Daniel agrees with Georg's criticism, but notes that "no special criteria (other than acceptance by the Approving Body and minimal formatting compliance) need to be met in order for a XEP to be granted a status of Experimental." Travis understood there to be very different UX between generic Jingle invites and call invites - Jonas took it to mean that this may be true in theory, but in practice 0353 is mostly used for calls, while a push notification for a file transfer offer might be undesirable. Georg will reject the current proposal because it lacks a rationale that clearly describes how 0353 is unsuitable - the author, Larma, thinks the Introduction already has a decent explanation of why it's different. 3) Editor's Update Nothing new. 4a) PR #1148 (XEP-0060: Specify pubsub#type to reflect semantic info) - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1148 Jonas: +1 Travis: +1 Georg: +1 (looks rather editorial to me) Daniel: [on-list] Larma: +1 4b) PR #1149 (XEP-0256: Deprecate in favour of XEP-0319) - https://github.com/xsf/xeps/pull/1149 Daniel has implemented XEP-0319 (Last User Interaction in Presence) and thought it was lacking in some areas - Jonas asks what's lacking, as they look pretty much the same - Daniel isn't saying that it's better or worse, just that it didn't feel ready, and it feels wrong to Deprecate in favour of something that isn't ready yet. Georg wonders whether XEP-0319 should be included in the Compliance Suites; Jonas has an agenda item about this year's Compliance Suites. Larma thinks that XEP-0319 lacks the functionality to indicate that a timestamp is purposely inaccurate, e.g. rounded to the next hour for privacy - Travis thinks that should be covered in Security Considerations. Daniel has a bunch of issues with 0319, but this isn't the right venue, and it's orthogonal to Deprecating XEP-0256 (Last Activity in Presence). Travis: +1 Georg: +1 Jonas: +1 Daniel: +0 Larma: +1 (on getting rid of 256 so we don't have a duplicate) 5) Pending Votes Georg on the four proposed XEPs… Message Replies: +0 (I like the idea and the UX, but I dislike the mess we are in regarding message reference mechanisms) Compatibility Fallbacks: -1 (needs to be merged into 0428) Call Invites: -1 (should be merged into 0353 unless this merging fails, in which case it needs a better description of why 0353 is not sufficient - the one it has is inadequate as it lacks depth) PubSub Namespaces: -1 (as discussed before, this needs to go into pubsub#type) Everyone on PR #1145… Georg: -1 (removes too much from 0030; see [2] for feedback) Jonas: -1 (supporting the reasons on-list: it is well suited in the PEP add-ons. I like Dave's reasoning that "otherwise trusted" should be taken for that as an escape hatch) Travis: -1 (we shouldn't allow it to become useable for harvesting JIDs) Daniel: -1 (see [3]) Larma: -1 (same reasoning as Travis; also don't think it's needed that you can disco to fetch the pep node) Travis thinks the XEPs that make harvesting JIDs useable need to be fixed, not expanded. 6) Date of Next 2022-01-26 1600 UTC Georg will be on vacation for the next two weeks. 7) AOB Daniel checks that everyone has time for Jonas's urgent agenda item - nobody protests. Jonas suggests that XEP-0459 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2022) should be advanced - it's still Stable and should be moved to Final, now that 2022 has started; the Editor will issue a CFE if there are no objections. Daniel asks whether previous Compliance Suites were moved to Final; isn't sure it's necessary - Jonas doesn't have strong opinions on it being Final, given that 'Draft' is now called 'Stable' which he can live with; Travis feels like it should be moved to Final, but doesn't mind either way; Daniel thinks it provides value as is. Georg is slightly in favour of moving to Final. Daniel asks how the 'two implementations' rule would be applied - Georg is sure there are many implementations of Core Core XMPP. Larma asks whether this will Deprecate or Obsolete XEP-0443 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2021) - Jonas explains that deprecation must come first, but both could easily be voted on (even right now, which would be good given Georg's planned absence.) Daniel thinks that's as good an excuse as any. 4c) Deprecate and Obsolete XEP-0443 (XMPP Compliance Suites 2021) - https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0443.html Jonas: +1 Larma: +1 Daniel: +1 Georg: +1 Travis: +1 8) Close Daniel thanks everyone. Jonas and Georg thank everyone for the productive meeting and discussion. Travis thanks all and wishes Georg a good time. Larma gives thanks. [1] https://logs.xmpp.org/council/2022-01-19?p=h#2022-01-19-591a56f65e691b39 [2] https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-January/038724.html [3] https://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/standards/2022-January/038726.html
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