Hi Policy & Stovers, In my general advocacy duties, I spoke with Valerie Reed at EE.DOE, the Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Office of the Biomass Program. I sent my industry & news updates to her after our conversation, she was aware of biochar efforts, which allowed me to pile on stuff from ISU etc.
She was excited about the scale & scope of the stove initiative with Dept of State, CDC, EPA & DOE and lamented that funding won't be til 2011. Cheers, Erich On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 4:30 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Paul and lists. > > 1. My first words were: "*I like all parts of your message > below.....*" and later " ..thank you for being blunt..". I agree I was > lengthy on Nat, but I felt it important to do so - because I feel Nat has > explained a lot more about his stove than you were giving him credit for. > Do you know anyone with more stove videos? I was also trying to emphasize > that his Lucia is very different and I hope others will pick up on some of > his corporate techniques (as I gather things are going quite well). I > think the subject line was fine as is - and I change a lot of subject > lines. Your "too closed" was what I took to be the subject. > > 2. I think I also was on topic in talking about the problems of > stove-related corporations - even non-profit ones. We cannot expect full > disclosure of every stove detail when people are trying to make money - and > might be losing it - and/or trying hard to avoid future losses. We need > both corporations and volunteers - but we especially need the former now. > > 3. I am now being redundant, but I (like you) hope everyone will share > more stove data. But it is not easy to do. I'd rather get none than crappy > data. Fortunately, this new global stove program should/will have some > money to put into really thorough testing. In Dean's (and those at CSU or > Berkeley, etc) defense, I presume there have been few people batting down > their doors to fund a wide range of stove testing - especially as > independent third parties. I know Nat has paid for his own - and presumably > does release right now to those who he feels he should be working with. I > have not seen any of his detailed test data. > > Ron > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Cc: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" < > [email protected]>, "Otto Formo" <[email protected]>, > [email protected], "biochar-policy" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 1:57:47 PM > Subject: Ron changed the subject. . Re: Disapprovals about being too > closed. Re: [Stoves] Air supply in TLUDs > > Dear Ron, > > If you wish to convert the topic to a discussion of WorldStove, please > change the Subject line. > > Nat is a nice fellow with a great product, but his sharing needs to be > more than what I have seen, in my personal opinion. He has given > nothing about his emissions tests, and I know of no independent person > who has complete access to his technology for giving us more feedback. > Success by WorldStove is desirable, but so is success by First > Energy and Philips. May they all be successful. ALL of them have > honorable goals, including making a profit AND helping the poor who > could have access to those stoves. Good. > > Once again, I have been blunt. > > Now, can we please discuss what I wrote about? > > Paul > > Quoting [email protected]: > > > > > Paul and ccs (adding "Biochar-policy") > > > > I like all parts of your message below with one exception - thank > > you for being blunt. The exception is your statement that World > > Stove (Nathaniel Mulcahy) is acting like the other four in your > > five-corporation secrecy list. Today, Nat recommended a new video > > that I found clever but in no way informative about the technical > > side of his stove operations. But while looking at the new one, I > > saw this other 1:37 minute video about the Lucia: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zefrhc8kgM&NR=1&feature=fvwp > > > > Because I have been to his Italian facility and played with several > > Lucias with several fuels, I can assure everyone that a careful > > (cursory won't do it) review of what is shown and stated there (and > > you wouldn't need one in hand) would allow one to duplicate it and > > understand its principles of operation completely. Nat's is truly a > > remarkable invention - I know I could not have developed it myself. > > This video is the complete opposite of secrecy. > > > > With several presentations at stove, Biochar, and UN-sponsored > > climate meetings, Nat has freely discussed how it works and has > > passed it around for close examination. He is showing a totally free > > (much simpler) design at his web site. But he did all this only > > after getting his patents. I think it is indeed a unique product > > that is worthy of patent protection in the best sense of that word. > > I presume that others are free to try to improve upon it and get > > there own patents - but my guess is that Nat's is pretty tight . > > Everyone should go into intentional avoidance of patents with good > > lawyers on your side first. What's more to get to the foundry > > casting of the two key parts is not a low budget operation. > > > > So, I think it is much too hard on Nat (who has used up a great deal > > of his savings and quite a few years of his life) to say he is not > > sharing information Companies like those you have listed all have to > > make money or they go out of existence. A certain amount of secrecy > > comes with the territory. My point is that Nat has been remarkably > > open - I think because he has a new idea that is patent protected. > > Without that protection, we would not have this stove development. I > > can't see how any of the other four can make any claim on novelty or > > patents - which they probably all have. His product/patent is > > scalable to much larger sizes than simple stoves - where patent > > protection is obviously very critical. He seems to be open to joint > > ventures. Note he has been careful in training programs with only > > in-country assembly and a great emphasis on using the produced char > > for ag and sequestration purposes. So I feel that the implication > > that he is in this only for money is unfair > > > > He still has to compete on price and performance with TLUDs (and > > hopefully some other future designs). There is no monopoly situation > > here > > > > I have no financial interest in World Stoves or any other similar > > stove or pyrolysis operation. > > > > Ron > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: [email protected] > > To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" > > <[email protected]>, "Otto Formo" <[email protected]>, > > [email protected] > > Cc: [email protected], "Discussion of biomass cooking > > stoves" <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, December 5, 2010 12:09:35 PM > > Subject: Disapprovals about being too closed. Re: [Stoves] Air > > supply in TLUDs > > > > Dear Otto, Dean, and all Stovers, > > > > I take issue with one statement by Otto, who wrote about Aprovecho's > efforts: > > > >> Good advice: > >> Leave it to others to test and tune the TLUD ND Gasifier Units, > >> please.................... > > > > I disagree. We (the Stover community) need everyone working on these > > issues. And Dean at Aprovecho has great facilities for doing testing > > of emissions. Dean, keep up the good work!! > > > > Having said that, I now take issue with Dean and the apparent > > Aprovecho approach which is: > > > > 1. Not providing all of the information that the others want to have > > about what testing is going on with the TLUD stoves. > > > > 2. At Aprovecho, not involving to any noticable extent any of the > > pioneers or other experienced advocates of the TLUD stoves. > > > > 3. Having made a major shift of direction from many years of "polite > > tolerance of TLUD gasifiers" to very recent "strong advocacy of TLUD > > gasifiers with bias toward Aprovecho recent initiatives." EVERYONE is > > most welcome to get onto the TLUD bandwagon, but let's not get into > > "private" separate bandwagons. > > > > Comments: > > > > Sure, everyone is chasing the money. The money for stoves has been so > > sparse in the past, and it now looks to be like major piles of funds > > could come to some participants, especially those with a tradition of > > being the advisors of the funding sources or recipients of grants in > > the past. > > > > I commend Aprovecho for its leadership and contacts in the past. But > > not if it takes a self-serving approach at the expense of those who > > have cumulative decades of experience. Is Aprovecho trying to enter > > the big-time with corporate approaches to the stoves problems? > > > > And while I am at it, why not "prickle" the entire "corporate world > > approach." The major work by First Energy India (former BP project) > > and the Philips efforts got mentioned in the recent article by Kirk > > Smith as if they were the only serious accomplishments with the most > > modern stoves. Those cooporations have thrown major money (millions > > of dollars) to have products that now can attract Dr. Smith's attention. > > > > But those corporate efforts have SHARED NOTHING with the rest of us. > > No info about emissions levels, no cross-fertilization with others. > > "Do it alone or do not do it at all" seems to be too closed, in my > > opinion. > > > > And does that apply to others such as Stove Tech, Enviro-fit, World > > Stove, and any others? They all seem to be determined to do it all in > > isolation, keeping everything to themselves. (Some exceptions like > > giving away tid-bits of designs or info does not equate to openness, > > but is good salemanship.) > > > > Is that the way to do business to benefit the poorest of the poor and > > even the moderately poor? Perhaps it is, or so it seems to be in the > > capitalist model of stove work that is getting the attention. > > > > However, the world arrived at its 2009 state of TLUD knowledge almost > > entirely by the efforts of dedicated individuals primarily on > > personally donated time and materials or as side-efforts to their main > > employment. Not one of those person is yet deceased, and all are > > still willing -- and highly capable -- to donate and contribute to > > accomplish their dreams. But there are limits, especially when > > exclusion is stronger than inclusion. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Paul > > "Dr. TLUD" > > > > > > Quoting Otto Formo <[email protected]>: > > > >> Dear all, > >> I just happend to see this statements about the TLUD ND PekoPe and > >> are a bit surprized that Dean, claims "his" TLUD only can use > >> pellets and for how long the pellets lasts in the combustion chamber > >> as a flame and charcoal. > >> > >> To my knowledge, the real "PekoPe" burns with an open flame for > >> about two hours and glow for another 4-5 houers by using 2,5 kg of > >> pellets made out of wood (pine)..!? > >> The other thing I noted was that "his" TLUD gives a number of 400 mg > >> PM, while Paal`s prototype done at the Aprovech Research Center, > >> only gave 223 mg PM in 2009!? > >> A lot of water has passed in the river Nile since then, even in > >> Zambezi...........:) > >> > >> Good advice: > >> Leave it to others to test and tune the TLUD ND Gasifier Units, > >> please.................... > >> > >> Otto > >> Forester and still a TLUD ND "PekoPe" fan............without a > fan........ > >> > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> Sent: 2010-12-05 07:54:22 MET > >>> To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves [ > [email protected]] > >>> Subject: [Stoves] Air supply in TLUDs > >>> > >>> > >>> Dean > >>> > >>> I think you are describing below only a TLUD that has no control > >>> over the primary air supply. Or one that has a turn down ratio of > >>> unity. We should be able to do much better. > >>> > >>> I urge having a means of controlling the primary air supply. If one > >>> is intending to consume the produced char, there will be a mighty > >>> small flame at the end or a huge flame at the beginning. > >>> > >>> There are many ways to control the primary air - at low cost. > >>> > >>> > >>> Ron > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Dean Still" <[email protected]> > >>> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" > >>> <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Thursday, December 2, 2010 10:30:33 PM > >>> Subject: Re: [Stoves] K Smith Article in Energy for Sustainable > Development > >>> > >>> Hi All, > >>> > >>> > >>> Adding more air holes in the bottom of the fuel chamber in a TLUD > >>> allows pellets to burn up completely. If users want bio-char they > >>> just have to have fewer holes. Then the char is made since there is > >>> not enough air to support burning it. > >>> > >>> > >>> If it is tuned (!), the TLUD is very low in PM when it does not > >>> make smoke when starting and finishing the burn. CO is also > >>> generally low. In the well tuned TLUD we generally see around 7g of > >>> CO and 400mg of PM during the WBT compared to a carefully operated > >>> open fire at 55g CO and 2300mg PM. Generally the TLUD makes less > >>> smoke at the finish with more air holes because all the wood burns > >>> up without making smoke. > >>> > >>> > >>> Isn't it great that a TLUD can be operated in both char making and > >>> no char making modes? > >>> The user can choose whether they want greater fuel efficiency or to > >>> make an agricultural additive. > >>> > >>> > >>> Best, > >>> > >>> > >>> Dean > >>> > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using Illinois State University RedbirdMail > > > __._,_.___ > Reply to > sender<[email protected]?subject=re%3a%20ron%20changed%20the%20subject%2e%20%20%20%2e%20re%3a%20disapprovals%20about%20being%20too%20closed%2e%20%20%20%20%20re%3a%20%5bstoves%5d%20air%20supply%20in%20tluds>| > Reply > to > group<[email protected]?subject=re%3a%20ron%20changed%20the%20subject%2e%20%20%20%2e%20re%3a%20disapprovals%20about%20being%20too%20closed%2e%20%20%20%20%20re%3a%20%5bstoves%5d%20air%20supply%20in%20tluds>| > Reply > via web > post<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-policy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxM3UxMjBrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDkwBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMyNzAwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTI5MTU4NDYzNQ--?act=reply&messageNum=2700>| > Start > a New > Topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-policy/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmanJtZHRvBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDkwBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudHBjBHN0aW1lAzEyOTE1ODQ2MzU-> > Messages in this > topic<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-policy/message/2700;_ylc=X3oDMTM1ZnVndHJ0BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDkwBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRtc2dJZAMyNzAwBHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTI5MTU4NDYzNQR0cGNJZAMyNzAw>( > 1) > Recent Activity: > > > Visit Your > Group<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biochar-policy;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZmhuMGpwBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDkwBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzEyOTE1ODQ2MzU-> > MARKETPLACE > > Find useful articles and helpful tips on living with Fibromyalgia. 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