Kevin (cc 2 lists): 1. Your response to my one sentence response to Anil's two questions below has nothing to do with stoves. If you want to continue discussions on whether excess atmospheric carbon can/will/should be a reason for accelerated growth of Biochar, I urge you to join our sister list: "Biochar-policy" (being cc'd).
2. The important part of Anil's two questions (which contained the words that I answered (see below) in a personal "belief" (as opposed to your denial) sense were the two now underlined (my choices for emphasis) and CAPITALIZED conjunctions: By Ani l: "What will be a better strategy for agricultural residues: to produce char OR organic fertilizer? Is there any quantitative studies done for both value production AND reducing environmental considerations? The answers that Anil seeks are on the four Biochar lists and the IBI site (and dozens of other sites) almost every day. I gave the shortest appropriate answer I could for the stoves list. 3. B y far the biggest " environmental consideration " we have in the world today is anthropogenic global warming (AGW). If Anil meant anything else, I would be greatly surprised. When I have seen you (mostly a biochar detractor) defending your Biochar PR advice on any of the biochar lists, then I will take your charge of my irresponsibility seriously. 4. I also look forward to your claiming on any biochar list that IBI is "irresponsible" when saying, exactly as did I, that Biochar can effectively remove excess CO2 - as one of two equal parts of IBI's Biochar definition.. 5. You referred to my "belief" several times - presumably to contrast with "denier". I also "believe" in the law of gravity. I believe in evolution. I can't think of another word to use in questions of science. I'm ready to discuss the words "belief" and "denier" any time you wish when talking about the sciences related to AGW and/or Biochar. 6. I am not going to respond to any of your admonishments below except to say I find no merit in any of them. I'd be glad to explain that "any" statement on the "biochar-policy" list. "Stoves" is not an appropriate venue for that dialogue. 7. To stovers: I hope/think most of you will recognize that we will see a lot more clean and income-generating stoves (charcoal-making stoves) when the USA catches up with the rest of the world. By "catchup", I mean gaining a realistic view of the problems associated with AGW ( the subject matter of the three messages following). Charcoal-making stoves can play a huge and early role in solving this AGW problem. Carbon negativity is very different from carbon neutrality. I believe Anil asked a good question and I would not change my answer. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin" <[email protected]> To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 11:42:09 AM Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer Dear Ron Anil raises a very important question that should not be dismissed with a mere belief. I suggest that you are doing Biochar a great disservice by persisting on "beating the Climate Change Drum", while disregarding the circumstances where biochar additions to the soil will actually benefit the Farmer and Grower. Biochar usage will escalate dramatically in circumstances where biochar can be clearly and palpably demonstrated as being cost effective to the Farmer and Grower. In my opinion, Biochar usage will virtually collapse, if its use depends on the Carbon Credit Payment incentives actually received by the Farmer or Grower. The general state of the World Economies, and the complexity of system administration is such that it is extremely unlikely that Carbon Credit Payments will actually reach the Farmer or Grower to a degree that such payments will encourage the use of biochar. Furthermore, I feel it is irresponsible to promote increased usage of Biochar in Agriculture, without knowing the circumstances where biochar additions will actually be of benefit to the Farmer and Grower. Some of the Farmers that people like Anil, Dr. Reddy, Dr. Karve, and Peter Ongele wish to help are literally one crop away from starvation; a "disappointing yield" or a crop failure can literally have lethal consequences. Sadly, all too many "Biochar Promoters" infer that "Biochar = Terra Preta". Evidence I have from personal tests, confirmed by others, shows that "Biochar Only", in a disadvantaged soil will DECREASE plant growth. However, others have indeed shown that under certain circumstances, biochar appears to be beneficial to the Farmer or Grower, PROVIDING that other soil amendments needed by the soil are added at the same time. Such "other soil amendments" or additives could include: * Organic matter * Manure * Fertilizer * Compost * Urine * Microbes * Sugar * Silt and Clay * Etc Biochar alone is NOT a panacea for the Farmer or Grower. While it can be PART of a solution in some cases, it can only result in an improvement if it brings something to the soil, that the soil lacks. For example, there is no point in adding charcoal to a soil that is deficient in organic matter, in that charcoal is NOT organic matter... it is "mineralized carbon" that originated from biomass, and it cannot feed the soil life-forms necessary for plant growth. In my opinion, Anil's question is extremely relevant, and it deserves to be answered in a responsible manner... with evidence from competently structured and implemented tests, rather than being dismissed with an unsupported belief. Using a soil that is otherwise "good", with the single exception that it is deficient in organic matter, the tests should be structured to determine if the Farmer or Grower gets superior growth results under the following test conditions: A: A given amount of organic matter is added to the soil per square meter. or B: The SAME amount of organic matter per square meter is charred to produce biochar, and the resulting biochar is added to the test plot. Note that this simple test will only prove the difference between organic matter and biochar... it does not answer the question posed by Anil. Given that an "Organic Fertilizer" is "Organic matter plus a "package of additives"", the above simple test could be expanded in a manner where identical "additive packages" were added to the test plots in the "A Plots" (organic matter) and "B Plots" (biochar from the same amount of organic matter). Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Larson To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 7:21 AM Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer Anil (cc list) I believe Biochar will do the better job of removing excess atmospheric CO2 and of improving soil productivity over the long term. Ron Sent from my iPad On Nov 2, 2011, at 2:38 AM, nari phaltan < [email protected] > wrote: <blockquote> Dear Stovers, What will be a better strategy for agricultural residues: to produce char or organic fertilizer? Is there any quantitative studies done for both value production and reducing environmental considerations? Both char and organic fertilizer will go towards enriching the soil. Cheers. Anil -- Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI) Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road P.O.Box 44 Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India Ph:91-2166-222396/220945 e-mail:[email protected] [email protected] http://www.nariphaltan.org <blockquote> _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ </blockquote> _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1834 / Virus Database: 2092/4589 - Release Date: 11/01/11 </blockquote> _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://www.bioenergylists.org/
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