Stoves list (cc Kevin)
My response to the following will be on the "Biochar-policy" list tomorrow.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected], "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"
<[email protected]>
Cc: "biochar-policy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 9:57:45 PM
Subject: Re: [biochar-policy] Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer
Dear Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: [email protected]
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: biochar-policy
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 9:01 PM
Subject: [biochar-policy] Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer
Kevin (cc 2 lists):
1. Your response to my one sentence response to Anil's two questions below has
nothing to do with stoves. If you want to continue discussions on whether
excess atmospheric carbon can/will/should be a reason for accelerated growth of
Biochar, I urge you to join our sister list: "Biochar-policy" (being cc'd).
# I am not at all interested in further discussions on the effectiveness of
biochar as a means for sequestering carbon, in that it is a "slam/dunk,
"case-closed" matter. It is indeed a very effective way to sequester carbon.
Why discuss it further and beat a dead horse? However, I am indeed very
interested in discussing, from the viewpoint of the Farmer or Grower, whether
it is best for him to convert his agricultural waste to char, or to use it
uncharred (ie, "as is") as part of an organic fertilizer system.
2. The important part of Anil's two questions (which contained the words that I
answered (see below) in a personal "belief" (as opposed to your denial) sense
were the two now underlined (my choices for emphasis) and CAPITALIZED
conjunctions:
By Ani l: "What will be a better strategy for agricultural residues: to produce
char OR organic fertilizer?
Is there any quantitative studies done for both value production AND reducing
environmental considerations
# "2 + 2 = 5"... Your answer is right, but you answered the wrong questions!!
:-) What about dealing with the other important words in the issues he raised,
like strategy, organic fertilizer, qualitative studies, and value production?
The answers that Anil seeks are on the four Biochar lists and the IBI site (and
dozens of other sites) almost every day. I gave the shortest appropriate answer
I could for the stoves list.
# I do not know of any qualitative studies on any of the 5 lists you refer to
that deal with the best ways to put agricultural wastes to their highest use,
that is, if it is to the best interest of the Farmer/Grower to char his waste,
or to use it uncharred. Can you point to one?
3. B y far the biggest " environmental consideration " we have in the world
today is anthropogenic global warming (AGW). If Anil meant anything else, I
would be greatly surprised.
# "Environmental considerations" was one part of one question. His fundamental
thrust, as I saw it, was to see if there was any quantitative studies pointing
to the best way for using agricultural waste.
When I have seen you (mostly a biochar detractor) defending your Biochar PR
advice on any of the biochar lists, then I will take your charge of my
irresponsibility seriously.
# If you would kindly review all my postings on "Biochar", I think you will
find that I am a strong and enthusiastic supporter of the responsible use of
biochar, and also, that I am strongly against the irresponsible use of biochar.
If, in all my postings on Biochar you can find even one that is against the
responsible use of Biochar, then I will tender my sincere apology. However, I
will continue to oppose the wrongful promotion of biochar as a "silver bullet,
a "cure-all", or an "agricultural panacea."
4. I also look forward to your claiming on any biochar list that IBI is
"irresponsible" when saying, exactly as did I, that Biochar can effectively
remove excess CO2 - as one of two equal parts of IBI's Biochar definition..
# Biochar is an effective method of sequestering carbon and advocating its use
in agriculture without knowing the circumstances where biochar additions will
actually be of benefit, preferably maximum benefit, to the Farmer and Grower is
irresponsible. Responsible agricultural extension work does not consist of
piggy-backing favourite climate issues on food production advice where the
consequence for the latter are unknown. Your argument is "2+2=5".
5. You referred to my "belief" several times - presumably to contrast with
"denier". I also "believe" in the law of gravity. I believe in evolution. I
can't think of another word to use in questions of science. I'm ready to
discuss the words "belief" and "denier" any time you wish when talking about
the sciences related to AGW and/or Biochar.
# I used your "belief" word in the context of "a view presented with no
supporting
evidence or explanation."
6. I am not going to respond to any of your admonishments below except to say I
find no merit in any of them. I'd be glad to explain that "any" statement on
the "biochar-policy" list. "Stoves" is not an appropriate venue for that
dialogue.
# Anil's question is of profound and utmost relevance and importance to the
Stove List!! If it turns out that the quantitative studies, about which he
inquired, showed that the best strategy for using agricultural waste was for
the Farmer/Grower to use it in the uncharred state, then a major justification
for the production of biochar would be unfounded. In such a case, a significant
fraction of the justification for stoves developed to produce biochar would be
questionable. Please note that "agricultural waste" can have four fundamental
uses:
1: For direct application to the soil, or as part of an "organic fertilizer"
2: For direct use as fuel, with or without pelletizing, briquetting or other
such processing.
3: For conversion to charcoal, intended for use as fuel
4: For conversion to charcoal, for use as biochar.
7. To stovers: I hope/think most of you will recognize that we will see a lot
more clean and income-generating stoves (charcoal-making stoves) when the USA
catches up with the rest of the world. By "catchup", I mean gaining a realistic
view of the problems associated with AGW ( the subject matter of the three
messages following). Charcoal-making stoves can play a huge and early role in
solving this AGW problem.
# If the charcoal is not advantageously used as a benefit to agriculture, is it
still "biochar?"
Carbon negativity is very different from carbon neutrality. I believe Anil
asked a good question and I would not change my answer.
# But your reply does not deal with the important fuel related issues he
raises! Perhaps I can restate them as follows: Is it better for the Farmer or
Grower to use the agricultural waste biomass (whole) as a fuel or to use it as
part of an organic fertilizer, either directly or after charring it, and, has
any generally accepted comparative benefit been studied quantitatively?
Kevin
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin" <[email protected]>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 11:42:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer
Dear Ron
Anil raises a very important question that should not be dismissed with a mere
belief. I suggest that you are doing Biochar a great disservice by persisting
on "beating the Climate Change Drum", while disregarding the circumstances
where biochar additions to the soil will actually benefit the Farmer and
Grower. Biochar usage will escalate dramatically in circumstances where biochar
can be clearly and palpably demonstrated as being cost effective to the Farmer
and Grower. In my opinion, Biochar usage will virtually collapse, if its use
depends on the Carbon Credit Payment incentives actually received by the Farmer
or Grower.
The general state of the World Economies, and the complexity of system
administration is such that it is extremely unlikely that Carbon Credit
Payments will actually reach the Farmer or Grower to a degree that such
payments will encourage the use of biochar.
Furthermore, I feel it is irresponsible to promote increased usage of Biochar
in Agriculture, without knowing the circumstances where biochar additions will
actually be of benefit to the Farmer and Grower. Some of the Farmers that
people like Anil, Dr. Reddy, Dr. Karve, and Peter Ongele wish to help are
literally one crop away from starvation; a "disappointing yield" or a crop
failure can literally have lethal consequences. Sadly, all too many "Biochar
Promoters" infer that "Biochar = Terra Preta". Evidence I have from personal
tests, confirmed by others, shows that "Biochar Only", in a disadvantaged soil
will DECREASE plant growth. However, others have indeed shown that under
certain circumstances, biochar appears to be beneficial to the Farmer or
Grower, PROVIDING that other soil amendments needed by the soil are added at
the same time. Such "other soil amendments" or additives could include:
* Organic matter
* Manure
* Fertilizer
* Compost
* Urine
* Microbes
* Sugar
* Silt and Clay
* Etc
Biochar alone is NOT a panacea for the Farmer or Grower. While it can be PART
of a solution in some cases, it can only result in an improvement if it brings
something to the soil, that the soil lacks. For example, there is no point in
adding charcoal to a soil that is deficient in organic matter, in that charcoal
is NOT organic matter... it is "mineralized carbon" that originated from
biomass, and it cannot feed the soil life-forms necessary for plant growth.
In my opinion, Anil's question is extremely relevant, and it deserves to be
answered in a responsible manner... with evidence from competently structured
and implemented tests, rather than being dismissed with an unsupported belief.
Using a soil that is otherwise "good", with the single exception that it is
deficient in organic matter, the tests should be structured to determine if the
Farmer or Grower gets superior growth results under the following test
conditions:
A: A given amount of organic matter is added to the soil per square meter.
or
B: The SAME amount of organic matter per square meter is charred to produce
biochar, and the resulting biochar is added to the test plot.
Note that this simple test will only prove the difference between organic
matter and biochar... it does not answer the question posed by Anil. Given that
an "Organic Fertilizer" is "Organic matter plus a "package of additives"", the
above simple test could be expanded in a manner where identical "additive
packages" were added to the test plots in the "A Plots" (organic matter) and "B
Plots" (biochar from the same amount of organic matter).
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
<blockquote>
From: Ron Larson
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 7:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Char vs. fertilizer
Anil (cc list)
I believe Biochar will do the better job of removing excess atmospheric CO2 and
of improving soil productivity over the long term.
Ron
Sent from my iPad
On Nov 2, 2011, at 2:38 AM, nari phaltan < [email protected] > wrote:
<blockquote>
Dear Stovers,
What will be a better strategy for agricultural residues: to produce char or
organic fertilizer?
Is there any quantitative studies done for both value production and reducing
environmental considerations?
Both char and organic fertilizer will go towards enriching the soil.
Cheers.
Anil
--
Nimbkar Agricultural Research Institute (NARI)
Tambmal, Phaltan-Lonand Road
P.O.Box 44
Phaltan-415523, Maharashtra, India
Ph:91-2166-222396/220945
e-mail:[email protected]
[email protected]
http://www.nariphaltan.org
<blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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