that´s what we talk about in Mexico las August.
but it taking long to get the testing sites that will be making all the
protocols (WBT-KPT, etc.)
and also who will certified this testing sites?
Gustavo
________________________________
From: Frank Shields <[email protected]>
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2013 1.2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stove testing worldwide (and NOT about
procedures/protocols)
Dear Paul,
Just to sum up how I think about it.....
The testing program need to be 'standalone' when it comes to cost. There
need be an incentive and reward for paying to get a stove tested. That comes
by having NGO that are planning to purchase stoves to require 'certified'
tests on every stove type they will consider buying.
The lab doing the testing must prove they can perform the tests and get the
same results other labs get. Round Robing programs run by a non-lab group
that take lab data and compare to others. Jim Jetter at CSU can do the
testing but some other group must review and approve the results before the
results are placed on the certification list. That group has yet to be set
up(?).
There must be full confidence in the lab to report non-bios results and not
be connected in any way to a stove maker. This to encourage the confidence
in stove makers to have their stoves tested (pay money) that they will be on
even ground with all others in the playing field big or small. Without
confidence they will not have their stoves tested and the program will not
go forward.
1) NGO's only buy stoves certified
2) A group is set up to manage and run the certification program. They get
their money from the labs.
3) Labs pay money so that they get certified (round Robin testing, results
reviewed, test stove and fuel purchased) knowing they will get business from
the stove producers needing certified results.
4) Stove makers pay labs to have their stoves tested knowing they will get
on the list of approved stoves for NGO's to pick from.
4) NGO's buy stoves only from the list.
Complete circle being self-run. The NGO's pay more per stove because of the
program and their client pay more to have a stove (downside). But the
stoves are the best being produced and there are more choices and better
organized to pick from for a purpose or fuel type (upside). And we make fast
improvements in stoves and ideas with such a program.
Before this program can go we need to have good test methods and measuring
detectors. I think that is where we are stuck. Also; I think variation in
fuel quality is a limiting factor and we must characterize the fuel used
when testing the stoves. So we have a ways to go. But it is still worthwhile
getting the program working and do the best we can realizing changes will be
taking place. To get the program started there will need be some $ backing
to each of the groups in the circle to get it started and moving. We need to
fund the oversight group that certifies the labs. We need a marketing
program to get stove makers to have confidence they should pay to join the
program (they will sell their stoves). Labs need confidence stove makers
will join the program so they will get their money back after purchase and
setting up equipment and joining the certification program. NGO's will get a
better stove at a higher cost and then we have the end user - pay a little
more for a better, cleaner stove.
Something like that
Thank Paul for that message.
Frank
Frank Shields
Control Laboratories, Inc.
42 Hangar Way
Watsonville, CA 95076
(831) 724-5422 tel
(831) 724-3188 fax
http://www.biocharlab.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
Paul Anderson
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2013 6:21 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; Ranyee Chiang; Doc Anderson
Subject: [Stoves] Stove testing worldwide (and NOT about
procedures/protocols)
Dear Stovers, especially to the GACC leaders and Testing Centers,
(Sorry if my message is long, but if it is not important enough for you
to read it, you probably are not so serious about stove testing.)
Ranyee, please forward this to the directors of all the Testing Centers.
As we gather in 8 days in Cambodia for the GACC Forum, and with all of the
Testing Centers represented there, here are some questions (and
comments and requests) that I hope are addressed. In short, stove
testing issues are not just about protocols. It is also about the
realities of getting tests done.
0. Preface: Let's start with positive recognition of the GACC and the
associated Testing Centers and their leaders for all of the hard work
that is being done about stove testing. THANK YOU!!! We know that
many issues remain un-resolved. But perhaps the questions below can be
answered.
1. Please provide a full listing of ALL of the Test Centers, with
indication of what testing (efficiencies, CO, PM, safety, etc) each one
actually can conduct. It is hard to imagine that this does not already
exist, so really I am asking for a URL link if it exists. But this is just
the starting point.
2. What is the cost (the price, the charges) for having each of those
tests done at each Testing Center? Estimates and ranges of fees are
accepted information. These Centers are to be independent of the companies
that make stoves, and they are financially assisted by the
GACC. So who charges what prices? Is there competitive bidding? Or
are prices fixed by whom?
3. [ ALSO it would be interesting to know how many tests of which types are
actually conducted at each Center in 1 month or 6 months or yearly, but that
is perhaps prying too much into the operations of the
Centers. Maybe one or two centers could give us those numbers. But I
suspect that the GACC that is financing these Centers should require at
least that much accountability from each Center. If so, then perhaps
some averages or ranges of numbers could be shared, without naming the
Centers. ]
4. And what arrangements are possible to have financial assistance to those
of us who would like to have stoves "tested" informally (to learn about how
to improve the stove) and formally (to have results that can be
published.)?? Without financial assistance (as in a subsidy via the Testing
Center that has GACC assistance), the little guys will not afford the test
costs, and the big operations (and recipients of grants) will.
5. Because of the appropriate objectives of independent testing, and the
need for replication testing in multiple Test Centers, the costs
will escalate. What assistance is being arranged for this? NOTE:
Everyone wants his/her stove tested by Jim Jetter of the EPA. This is
becoming the "diamond standard". Great. But only if the stove gets
accepted into the group to be tested, and then the results take 1 to 2 years
to be released because it is such a massive task for one place to
accomplish. ...
6. Meanwhile, where are any results from the other Testing Centers?
Very few and far between. Why? Partly because when a person or
company pays to have a stove tested (seems to be in most cases except via
Jim Jetter and sometimes via CSU with funding for testing), the
stove owner controls the results. And it seems that almost all of the
owners are not sharing their results. We can say "That's business."
But were is the progress? So if the GACC financially assists (supports) the
Testing Centers, and especially if "subsidized testing" can be offered, then
there could be requirements that the Testing Centers could
release some or all of those results. Perhaps the stove name and the
maker name are not released. But at least we could know about Rockets
and TLUDs and charcoal and "fan-forced" and simple bucket-stoves and etc.
Perhaps with some further subdivisions so that, for example, poor charcoal
stoves and the advanced/improved charcoal stoves are not lumped
into one category. And encourage the stove maker to agree to have the
actual stove named if the stove is somewhat reasonable or representative.
See many of you in Cambodia at the Forum.
Paul
--
Paul S. Anderson, PhD aka "Dr TLUD"
Email: [email protected] Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: www.drtlud.com
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