List. Cc Kevin Sorry, no apologies on this one.
The issue on the table is whether char-making stoves have an important connection to AGW. Since you and a few others disagree and continue to try to distance the two topics, I think it valid to ask if it is because you/they are a climate denier? ( Kevin and I have had off- list discussions, but he is free to say otherwise anytime on his AGW views.) To me it is important to try to educate deniers, and analyze their reasons for denial. I just can't comprehend such a view in 2013. Ron On Apr 22, 2013, at 8:05 AM, "Kevin" <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Ron > > I would suggest that your approach, as presented below, is some combination > of an Ad Hominum Attack, and an un-scientific witch hunt. The Bioenergy lists > should be a source of Truth and Fact, based on Science, but you persist in > tainting Stove and Agricultural issues involving char with AGW, Carbon > Credit, Climate Change, and "Denier" considerations. > > You could become a "Friend of Biochar" if you worked toward understanding how > biochar can be used to advantage by Farmers and Growers, in that if Farmers > and Growers find out how to use biochar economically, it will be used on a > widespread basis in Agriculture. Your AGW interests will then be advanced > by "Market Pull". > > If you disagree with the views of List Members, please do so by refuting > their views with palpable evidence showing why you feel they are wrong, and > not with ad hominum attacks. > > Thank you. > > Kevin Chisholm > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ron > To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves ; Paul Olivier > Sent: Sunday, April 21, 2013 11:52 PM > Subject: Re: [Stoves] Last? Alternative to Charcoal > > Paul and list: > > Thanks for a very complete response. This is to hope Crispin will respond > fully. > If so, I ask him three more to add to yours > > a. why he has chosen to NOT join the sister biochar lists, given the > heavy emphasis there as well in char-making stoves. > > b. whether much of his knowledge on biochar has come from WUWT. If not > what source (i am asking for a few specifics -not generalities) has he for > his statement below >> There have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read and >> hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up to close >> scrutiny. >> > > c. Does he see the connection I do between his being a "climate denier" > and being a skeptic on biochar? > > Ron > > > On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:25 PM, Paul Olivier <[email protected]> wrote: > >> See comments below. >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 1:13 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> Dear Jeff >> >> >> >> Thanks for that contribution. >> >> >> >> The point of Paul’s description is that in the circumstances where he is, it >> works. It works on several levels and it will probably continue to work for >> a long time. >> >> >> >> The scenario was discussed on this list several times before, going back >> years, but there was nowhere that all the ingredients were present. One of >> the things that makes the rice hull char attractive is the existence, on a >> big scale apparently, of land that benefits from the addition of the char, >> and growing of crops that benefit from it. >> >> >> >> There have been many claims made for biochar which, based on what I read and >> hear from people who read much more broadly, that don’t stand up to close >> scrutiny. >> >> >> Crispin, I take issue with this statement. The biochar research that I have >> been involved with (that is, biochar from my gasifiers) has been done in >> three different countries, and it involved seven universities. More than 20 >> experiments have been carried out, and in none of these experiments did >> biochar have negative effects. Contrary to what you might believe, this >> research does stand up to close scrutiny. These people are not just reading >> about biochar, but they are actually doing biochar research. I know many of >> these researchers, and they are not engaged in deceit. They are trying to >> help poor farmers understand the benefits of biochar. >> >> The same holds for permaculture >> >> >> What's wrong with permaculture? >> and improved stove and lots of things, so there is nothing ‘special’ about >> char, it is just that people get enthusiastic about something and wish it >> were universally true. >> >> >> Crispin, it is hard for me to believe that you actually wrote this! >> How do you know that that there is nothing special about biochar? >> Is this your field of expertise? >> Have you actually been involved in biochar research? >> I strongly suggest that you read the following: >> >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Agronomy_Carter%20et%20al%202013%2002%2017.pdf >> http://www.lrrd.org/public-lrrd/proofs/lrrd2501/chha25008.htm >> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd23/2/siso23032.htm >> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24026.htm >> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24039.htm >> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/2/siso24034.htm >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Biochar%20utilization%20in%20Rice%20crop%20on%20Tuk%20Vil%20Luvisol.pdf >> http://www.lrrd.org/lrrd24/11/leng24199.htm >> >> If you really want to understand the benefits of biochar, please read this >> book: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22013094/Biochar/Johannes%20Lehmann%2C%20Stephen%20Joseph-Biochar%20for%20environmental%20management_%20science%20and%20technology.pdf >> >> The people who wrote and edited this book are not charlatans. They are not >> deceitful. They are as good in their science as anyone could possibly be. >> Crispin, the moment you start doing biochar research of your own, then you >> might have something serious to say in this regard. >> >> >> >> No problem, we can live with filters on information to sift out what is >> beneficial and in what circumstances the claims how true. Independent >> investigation will support it if it is. >> >> >> Then do the independent investigation yourself. >> >> >> >> As I understand if, the Japanese have being doing this the longest and they >> are very circumscribed about what claims are made for biochar. >> >> >> Some of the best biochar research was done by the Japanese (Ogawa et al) >> back in the early 90's. They showed how biochar positively impacts the >> growth of AM fungi. This is explained in the book by Lehmann and Joseph. >> >> It is particular soils, particular crops and particular treatment of the >> char (temperature, species) that are in combination, what gives improved >> results. This theme constantly appears in the literature. As has been >> pointed out, just randomly putting char into soil can have negative >> consequences – it depends on the soil conditions. The last thing we need is >> a case of the char causing more harm than good while claims are made that it >> is improving things. The stove community should be working with agricultural >> trials experts. >> >> >> >> I read in the past that adding rice hull ash to rice fields is beneficial – >> maybe because the silica is extra-available, don’t know. Not my field. >> >> >> If this is not your field, then on what authority do you base your >> statements about rice hull biochar or rice hull ash? >> Again, I challenge you: do the research, as Preston, Leng and Shackley have >> done. >> What upsets me here is that I know well some of the people who have been >> conducting research with rice hull biochar. >> They know agriculture quite well, they have impeccable scientific >> credentials, and they, unlike you, are experts in this field. >> Then you come along, without any basis in fact, and question their research >> as not being scientific. >> Wow! >> >> I am just glad we have a working example of using gas and char that makes >> economic sense. >> >> >> It only makes economic sense, Crispin, if biochar plays a positive role in >> promoting plant and animal growth. If biochar does not play a positive role, >> we might as well burn it. >> >> Thanks. >> Paul Olivier >> >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> Crispin >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Paul A. Olivier PhD >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong >> Dalat >> Vietnam >> >> Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) >> Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) >> Skype address: Xpolivier >> http://www.esrla.com/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ >> > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ >
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