Kevin, No one in the scientific community is saying that the pH of the oceans have fallen below 7.0 and become acidic. Your questions miss the point altogether. Please read the links I have posted.
Paul On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 6:41 PM, Kevin <[email protected]> wrote: > ** > Dear Paul > > Crispin indicates that the mass of the ocean is about 1.33 billion billion > tons, i.e., 1.33 x 10^12 tons. That is a lot of water. > > The oceans are now alkaline. Some CO2 additions will lower the pH of the > ocean, but the oceans will still be alkaline. > > How much CO2 would be required to actually make the oceans acidic? > > At current rates of anthropogenic CO2 production, how long would it take > for the Oceans to actually become acidic? > > Thanks! > > Kevin > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Paul Olivier <[email protected]> > *To:* Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 08, 2013 7:08 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Stoves] more on ocean acidification > > Crispin, > > The term that the scientific community uses is "ocean acidification," and > this is a very real environmental problem that most people in the > scientific community do not deny. > > Many thanks. > Paul Olivier > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Friends**** >> >> **** >> >> I have been catching up on less important correspondence after being in >> Asia for a while. There is one thing that still needs to be put down like a >> broken-legged horse and that of course is the idea that CO2 ‘acidifies’ >> the ocean.**** >> >> **** >> >> Because this is a high school chemistry level topic and I know some of us >> took other things – or as the drummer in my brothers class said, “I don’t >> remember Chemistry, I was stoned that year.”**** >> >> **** >> >> So for those of you who were also stoned that year or can’t remember back >> that far, here is a simple review of pH with special reference to the >> oceans, CO2 and the false, badly mis-named idea that CO2 ‘increases the >> acidity of the oceans’.**** >> >> **** >> >> The term pH refers to one of three distinct chemical conditions which >> bear no relationship to each other. One is called acidity, another is >> called alkalinity and third is ‘neutral’. Acidity and alkalinity are so >> different that if equal in ‘strength’ they cancel each other completely >> leaving a neutral condition. Different pH numbers refer to different >> conditions.**** >> >> **** >> >> Acid solutions (it has to be a solution with water in it) have a >> chemistry that has Hydrogen atoms stripped of their single electron. They >> are thus positively changed and seeking an electron. This they will happily >> strip out of anything passing by if they can find it, tearing the molecules >> to bits in the process which is why acids ‘eat’ things.**** >> >> **** >> >> Alkaline solutions (again, involving water) have molecules that have an >> extra electron available (but not Hydrogen) and are thus negatively >> charged. They will give away an electron happily, often wrecking the object >> that receives it which is why they eat things too but by a completely >> different process.**** >> >> **** >> >> Both acidic and alkaline solutions can corrode things like metals and >> rocks. One takes electrons and one gives them. Quote opposite. The two >> conditions are so incompatible they cannot be present at the same time in a >> mixed solution. It is one, the other or ‘neutral’ if neither condition is >> present.**** >> >> **** >> >> If you have an alkaline solution like the ocean (pH 7.8 - 8.4 depending >> on where you are, the time of day and a host of other things) and you want >> to neutralise it so that all its spare electrons are taken up by various >> things, you would have to add something acidic. Adding CO2 by bubbling >> it through the seawater will convert some of the CO2 (about 1%) to >> carbonic acid which has a deficiency of electrons and that acid will merge >> with whichever passing opportunity presents itself. The corresponding >> alkaline molecule will be neutralised as its spare electron will be passed >> to the carbonic acid molecule (which has an H- in it) and afterwards >> neither will have any charge. Both will be neutralised if the charges are >> balanced.**** >> >> **** >> >> Because this happens very quickly, you cannot actually find any carbonic >> acid in the ocean. Nor any other acid. The oceans are not acidic at all. >> Any ocean has quite a store of available electrons. Anything acidic you >> dump into the sea is quickly neutralised and the pH drops slightly because >> it is closer to a neutral condition. The oceanic capacity to hand over >> electrons to any passing electron gap is very, very large. There are >> several processes that would begin to offer electrons but do not because >> the ocean is too alkaline to allow them to get started. The ability to do >> this is called the ‘buffering’ capacity. You may remember ‘Bufferin’ the >> pill that neutralises stomach acid. The pill is alkaline and has a large >> buffering capacity so it can hand a lot of electrons over to the acid in >> the stomach, thus neutralising it. If you took a whole bottle of Bufferin >> pills, your stomach would not become less and less and less acidic. It >> would be neutralised and then become alkaline and remains so until the >> spare electrons were taken up in a neutralising process. People are, in >> general, alkaline and should eat alkaline foods to remain healthy. Excess >> acid is a problem.**** >> >> **** >> >> By the same measure, reducing the availability of spare electrons in the >> ocean water does not *at all* make the water acidic because it still has >> many more available electrons. It is less alkaline, but it is not acidic at >> all – zero in the ‘acidic scale’ (there isn’t one). **** >> >> **** >> >> In order to make a convenient metric for describing these two conditions >> (which can cancel each other out very predictably) the pH scale is used. >> Above 7.0 the solution has available electrons and is termed alkaline. >> Below 7.0 is has a deficiency of electrons and is called ‘acidic’. The >> reason for the use of two different terms is they are chemically dissimilar >> and cannot coexist.**** >> >> **** >> >> Acidity of a solution is often represented by the Hydrogen equivalent [H+ >> ]T which is the total number of Hydrogen electrons that would be needed >> to neutralise it.**** >> >> **** >> >> Alkalinity is often expressed in terms of its equivalence to Calcium >> Carbonate CACO3 in mg/Litre.**** >> >> **** >> >> Q. Can CO2 ‘acidify’ water? **** >> >> A. Yes, if the water is neutral to begin with, or already >> acidic, like rain water. Because rain water is acidic, when it falls into >> the ocean it neutralises the drops of seawater where it touches, before >> becoming diluted again by the surrounding ocean. Rainwater does not impart >> to the ocean any microscopic ability to withdraw electrons. It is quickly >> neutralised by some seawater. When it is finished a few seconds later, the >> acid has been destroyed.**** >> >> **** >> >> Q. If one bubbled CO2 through sea water, would it eventually >> become acidic?**** >> >> A. Yes. If you were to first neutralise all the available >> electrons by mopping them up, after that it would start to become acidic. >> It would not considered be acidic at all until the whole body of the sample >> had first been neutralised. These two conditions cannot co-exist.**** >> >> **** >> >> Q. What about ‘acid rain’. **** >> >> A. All rain is acidic. It is acidic because fresh water >> absorbs CO2 rapidly from the atmosphere, converting about 1% into carbonic >> acid. This falls into the oceans and reacts with the available alkaline >> molecules. It is easy to acidify rain. It is very difficult to neutralise >> the oceans because of the rocks upon which they sit which have a huge, >> massive buffering capacity. There are numerous life cycles of creatures >> that withdraw CO2, CO3-2 and HCO3- when it is available. Obviously CACO3is >> high on the list for uptake by creatures that make shells. >> **** >> >> **** >> >> Q. Which has a larger impact on ocean alkalinity: atmospheric CO >> 2 or rain containing CO2?**** >> >> A. Not clear. Rain has a big effect because oceans actually >> have difficulty picking up enough CO2 to drive the level much above 600 >> ppm because of the limited surface area compared with the volume and the >> huge buffering capacity. Rain is much higher - about 1120 ppm CO2. >> Global rainfall totals about half a million cubic kilometers per year and >> contains about 600 billion tons of CO2 which is about 20 times >> human<http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.com/anthropogenic-climate-change.html>output. >> **** >> >> **** >> >> Q. What is the mass of the oceans?**** >> >> A. 1.332 billion billion tons.**** >> >> **** >> >> Q. Do reputable scientific organisations refer to ‘acidifying’ >> the oceans even though that is not, chemically, what it happening?**** >> >> A. Yes. NASA >> does<http://www.earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCarbon/>. >> “As we burn fossil fuels and atmospheric carbon dioxide levels go up, the >> ocean absorbs more carbon dioxide to stay in balance. But this absorption >> has a price: these reactions lower the water’s pH, meaning it’s more >> acidic.”**** >> >> **** >> >> Q. But it is less alkaline, not more acidic. Why do they write >> that when it is untrue, in fact it is unscientific?**** >> >> A. I don’t think anyone knows. Perhaps they too missed >> Chemistry in high school.**** >> >> **** >> >> +++++++**** >> >> Regards >> Crispin**** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> **** >> >> *Sent:* Friday, July 26, 2013 3:25 PM >> *Subject:* [Stoves] more on ocean acidification**** >> >> **** >> >> >> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=noaa-scientists-embark-voyage-asses-ocean-acidification >> >> -- >> Paul A. Olivier PhD >> 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong >> Dalat >> Vietnam >> >> >> **** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Stoves mailing list >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address >> [email protected] >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page >> >> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org >> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: >> http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ >> >> >> > > > -- > Paul A. Olivier PhD > 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong > Dalat > Vietnam > > Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) > Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) > Skype address: Xpolivier > http://www.esrla.com/ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Stoves mailing list > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address > [email protected] > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page > > http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org > > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: > http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ > > > -- Paul A. Olivier PhD 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong Dalat Vietnam Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) Skype address: Xpolivier http://www.esrla.com/
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