Paul,
Perhaps you missed the discussion late last year when a major study including BC was issued. Tami Bond, one of our number and a co-author, made a presentation for us at ETHOS in January. There is no question that BC is a major concern for “climate disruption” and health. It is not either biomass or fossil fuels. Improvement is needed for both. Tami’s notes for her Saturday evening Keynote address including the Dec 2012 study reference are at: http://www.vrac.iastate.edu/ethos/proceedings2013.html The study was, “A comparative risk assessment of burden of disease and injury attributable to 67 risk factors and risk factor clusters in 21 regions, 1990-2010: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2010.” Lim et. al December 2012. http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2812%2961766-8/abstract Household air pollution from solid fuels is listed in the comparative risk assessment as #4 globally. Tami described the BC impacts of kerosene and biomass and the impact of stove design on the evolution of BC and its persistence in the atmosphere. I will ignore your disparaging remarks about GACC. The reality is that we are all GACC. We should be mutually supporting individual and collective efforts to solve the myriad of issues to the extent that we can. Tom From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Olivier Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 7:59 PM To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Subject: Re: [Stoves] more on ocean acidification Tom, Please explain a bit more why you raise the question of black carbon? Do you do so mainly from the point of view of human health? Or do you have other environmental considerations in mind? As you know, many scientists maintain that black carbon warms the earth. Are you not going in the direction of another contentious issue that some might consider to be unrelated to stove design? Many parts of China have both coal and biomass. In such areas should we try to develop more efficient coal stoves? Or should we try to put a lot more emphasis on biomass stoves? Would it not make sense to develop stoves that are low in black carbon and at the same time do not create CO2 from non-renewable sources such as coal? Does the GACC ask such broad questions? Or does it operate out of sort of philosophical vacuum where issues like black carbon, global warming and ocean acidification are unrelated to stove design? Let us imagine an area in China where there is no biomass at all: no rice hulls, no rice straw, no agricultural or forestry residue of any kind. And let us suppose that in this barren landscape there is nothing but coal. Here I concede that it makes sense to focus attention on developing more efficient coal stoves. Many thanks. Paul On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Tom Miles <[email protected]> wrote: Black Carbon (BC) is a another compelling and totally related reason for developing improved biomass and fossil fuel stoves. A study published yesterday estimates that more the 80% of black carbon from China is from fossil fuels. A significant portion of that is from coal burning stoves. They recommend developing more efficient coal stoves. These tasks are all relevant and identified as part of the strategic work plan of the Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves (GACC). Tom Source Forensics of Black Carbon Aerosols from China Bing Chen, August Andersson, Meehye Lee, Elena N. Kirillova, Qianfen Xiao, Martin Kruså, Meinan Shi, Ke Hu, Zifeng Lu, David G. Streets, Ke Du and Örjan Gustafsson Environ. Sci. Technol., Article ASAP DOI: 10.1021/es401599r Publication Date (Web): August 08, 2013 Copyright © 2013, American Chemical Society http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es401599r From: Stoves [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paul Olivier Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 6:42 PM To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves Subject: Re: [Stoves] more on ocean acidification Dean, Are you saying that topics relating to global warming, ocean acidification and the benefits of biochar do not influence how we go about designing stoves? Should they be biomass stoves or fossil fuel stoves? Do we place all on a equal footing as long as they are clean-burning? If we build biomass stoves, should these stove be burning or producing biochar? How can we design a stoves in a theoretical vacuum? Thanks. Paul Olivier On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Dean Still <[email protected]> wrote: Dear All, I'd like to remind the List that the moderator has politely asked that we return to the topic of stoves. Best, Dean On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <[email protected]> wrote: Dear Ron I was going to reply but after subtracting the ad homina, speculations, straw men and loose assertions there was nothing left in the message. The problem you will continue to have with me is I have read the ‘Skeptical Science’ playbook on how to handle skeptical criticisms of AGW. It was a document put together by the Team (as you know) and promoted to the compliant as a way to communicate – a style, if you will – of how to handle people who were ‘off message’. There is actually a new one issued by some political group in the USA which I read this past week. It is pages long. It includes specific instructions for example to always mention ‘climate disruption’ as it is harder to dispute and refute than ‘global warming’ now that there isn’t any. It suggests ways to undermine and weaken the appeal of speakers who are presenting contrary evidence that undermines the catastrophic side of AGW (can’t have that). The vast majority of CAGW skeptics concede a human role in global warming, but assert that it is tiny and to date, undetectable. The instructions are to try to try to paint skeptics as ‘denying’ all human influence on the planet then offers various pejorative comparisons that can be made so as to cause consternation for the skeptic or those listening to them. The instructions from your buddies at SkS include always pooh-poohing the credentials of any author cited, always trying to paint the skeptical correspondent as ‘alone’ in their understanding, always insert some mention of how settled things are with the ‘majority’ of ‘reputable’ scientists and so on and on. We have seen it all before. You are quite good at following the party line but it does not (at all) address the fact that there is no such thing as ‘acidifying the ocean’ when the number of anions is reduced through a process called neutralisation so it is less alkaline. I will not matter if my mother ‘wears army boots’. Facts are facts. Peer-reviewed bunk is still bunk. As you will have noticed by now I am completely unimpressed by Letters1. As the CAGW fear-mongering system falls apart country after country is bailing out. As Fred says (I cannot say it better myself): “…hundreds of billions of Euros have been squandered, wasted, flushed down the Great Greenie Composting Toilet because Public Policy in Europe was highjacked by a group of political power craving environmentalists and grubby, funding desperate scientists who realized their First Class ticket on the Fame and Gravy train could be realized by abject fear mongering about human influences on the climate. “A disgraceful period in human history, one that will not be treated well by future historians. Think of how much human good, human happiness that money could have purchased. “Think of how much real science, not the frothed up, torqued up, glued together hockey sticks or photo shopped polar bear pictures that currently disgraces the scientific community could have taken place if the science funding had not been hijacked by a small gang of morally vacuous scientists that are only good at creating hysteria and performing kindergarten level research.” Kindergarten level research. What have I been calling for over the past 6 years with respect to stove testing? Surely everyone knows by now. I am calling for the peer review, the independent assessment of stove test protocols so that they are validated and the results they give can be believed. The resistance to this at every level has been amazing and not without consequence. For one, I have learned never to trust that a spreadsheet has no errors in it. I compliment whoever is working on the PEMS hood spreadsheet. The April 2013 version contains more than 100 fewer systematic errors that the 2010 version. But is still has not been independently reviewed. WBT 4.xx has not been independently reviewed for precision, accuracy and conceptual relevance. Now Ron, you have been most vociferous about how this or that aspect of climate science information has been brought forward in articles that ‘were not peer reviewed’ even if they were true. How about giving up on trying to humiliate and marginalise me on this list (or elsewhere – who knows) and put your energy into demanding that the GACC, the WB, the EPA, the Universities of Illinois, Colorado and Berkeley and anywhere else submit their protocols to competent authorities for independent review? Actually the WB has its project protocols reviewed…well, they should continue to do so. The stoves world is awash in bad test results and invalid claims and money trading hands on the basis of them. We cannot change things overnight, but by implementing this rule that you favour so highly a major contribution to the field of domestic energy can be attained. It will not matter (here) if there is a record short summer in the Arctic <http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/08/according-to-this-dmi-temperature-plot-the-arctic-has-dropped-below-freezing-about-two-weeks-early/#more-91293> or photos of stack emissions are faked <https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NOv_4-KeeKI> or SkS takes in on the chin with a Godwins Law parody <http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/08/07/inside-the-skeptical-science-secret-tree-house-bunker/#more-91202> or even if US winter temperatures continue to plunge <http://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/image15.png> . I don’t like trumped up CAGW claims about what ‘it causes <http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm> ’. I don’t like trumped up or trumped down stove performance results. Let’s work together and bring some proper science and engineering to the planet of stoves. I know you’ll want to help. We all do. Thanks Crispin 1 For those who do not know what this means, it is English for ‘letters after your name’ signifying formal recognition of capacity, knowledge and /or authority. Examples are BA, P.Eng etc. _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ -- Paul A. Olivier PhD 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong Dalat Vietnam Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) Skype address: Xpolivier http://www.esrla.com/ _______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address [email protected] to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/ -- Paul A. Olivier PhD 26/5 Phu Dong Thien Vuong Dalat Vietnam Louisiana telephone: 1-337-447-4124 (rings Vietnam) Mobile: 090-694-1573 (in Vietnam) Skype address: Xpolivier http://www.esrla.com/
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