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Although I agree with many of Mitch's arguments, in theory, I will say that many of us are NOT politicos, we are activists, there is a big difference. And where I understand that a person needs a job first and the whole notion of immediate needs vs. higher needs in the lives of all human beings, I ask one question? Where would you put public safety? If you read the state or federal constitutions, it is high on the list of responsibilities for elected officials. Many of us, do NOT just sit around and complain, many of us are proactive on the issues of concern to all of us. I think that the rise of the Green Party in the International community should be a sign, that issues of the environment are no longer OPTIONAL to engage in. Yes, perhaps the Greens have not established themselves strongly in third world countries, but have the Republicans or Democrats? Lets face it if International Workers Rights were important, wouldn't the Unions in this country try to organize in all of the other countries that have workers? Or is this just the right of people in the Western World, whose higher needs have been met? And for those of us who live in a house, have a job and have much more than most of the rest of the world, does that mean we should just sit around and be thankful, (which is a good start) or do we have some higher purpose to see that others around us that are being mistreated have some hope of us getting involved in their unsolved problems? So would you place breathing clean air and drinking clean water as an immediate need? Would you put those two things higher or lower on the "good living" scale than a job. If you are not healthy enough to work consistently, a job doesn't matter does it? If you are sick with environmental heath issues and cannot protect your family from the same illnesses, it all seems pretty pointless doesn't it? If you cannot sell your home and move elsewhere because the county has ruined your property and refuses to pay you for the damage, what do you do? Do you hope that a few of your noisy discontent friends and neighbors support you and rail against the system for mishandling your services, and ruining your health? I do. And I don't think that is too much to ask. Yes, the masses out there are thinking more about the Vikings than many of the issues that we discuss here, but lets not set anyone up as more or less valuable because of their political take on the issues we discuss here. I think the forum IS the place for us to think about issues without fear of retribution from others on the list. Heck, I just admitted to a bunch of people on the list that I have shopped at Wal-Mart, Target and other places that some of you would never set your foot in. I am certain that there are many people on this list that think that shopping at these places is a repugnant act. I do not. If I did I would not do it. However, many people who work at Wal-Mart and others need these places to be able to purchase their supplies, clothing and goods because their socio-economic level prevents them from going to Marshall Fields. One last shot. If Capitalism and Democracy are synonymous, than where are the rights of the citizen in all of this? Do we have rights anymore? Or is that one of those lower needs on the food chain that doesn't matter. I think that citizen rights is the bedrock of what this country was founded on. The Freedoms. Where are they? Pamela Ellison Como Park Saint Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitch Berg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 7:07 AM Subject: [StPaul] Capitalism + Democracy- Synonymous in St. Paul! > St. Paul E-Democracy Links > http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/links.html > _____________________________________________ > > Tim must be out of town. > > I'm going to drag this back to St. Paul. > > I'm not crazy about WalMart - but I think since we have a big building > there already, there'll be no harm done if WalMart thinks they can make a > go of it. I suspect they'll do just fine. > > What worries me is not so much the specious distinction between Democracy > and Capitalism - neither can exist without the other, and they're both > toast without *the rule of law* and *respect for private property*. > > No, what bothers me most is this notion that "democracy" is "a bunch of > people who do nothing but agitate about whatever issues are fashionable > making signs and picketing a store" - or to get at what Paul said, > "deciding what's best for the rest of us". > > Saint Paul - and this list - are awash in this line of thought; "the great > unwashed masses are too knotted up about the Vikings and Rush Limbaugh to > have the kinds of consciences we do - so we'll have to do it FOR them." > > Does Walmart - or any big box retailer - extinguish local business? I > talked with my local hardware store owner. He says he can't wait for > Menards; having a big hardware store nearby (but not TOO nearby) is usually > good for the small hardware store. > > When I first moved to the Midway (1987, and STILL the best neighborhood in > StPaul), there was Rainbow, and a ratty little supermarket (which sat idle > and empty for years), and a rattier corner store, and the various > convenience stores. Now, we have Rainbow AND Cub, and the corner store has > made a big comeback in the neighborhood itself, with several independants > springing up in the past few years (even as the dreaded chain convenience > stores have also multiplied), catering to people who may have fought the > lines to buy their staples at Cub, but are willing to pay extra to avoid > doing it again for the things they forgot... > > So will WalMart drive the local corner clothing or kitchenware store out of > business? Dunno - we don't have one. > > As to the other concerns about WalMart; do they promote > "sweatshops"? Perhaps - and it's likely as not that the "sweatshops" are > no worse, and quite possibly better (as a result of foreign scrutiny) than > the jobs people do on the local economy. That leaves aside, of course, the > paternalistic notion that "we" (and by "we" I mean a bunch of Volvo-driving > perpetual indignants and government employees from St. Paul) should decide > that all those foreigners would be better off working their rice paddies > than making shoes for Nike. For that matter, it's interesting that the > people who are most indignant about "sweatshops" are even MORE indignant > about the notion of exporting American democracy and the concomitant > GENUINE rule of law and free market to the countries whose laws and > (usually) dictatorships thrive on the wretched status quo. > > Pollution? That's the thing that eludes most Greens; worrying about the > environment is ONLY possible in societies that have enough economic growth > to generate enough wealth that enough people have enough leisure time to > think about things like environments. Ugandan coffee farmers and Chiapan > goatherds and Bangladeshi maggot ranchers don't tend to join groups like > the Green Party, because they are busy working from 5AM to 9PM for > survival. And what is the *only* system in history that has generated > enough wealth to allow a generation of Volvo-driving perpetual indignants > and coffee-swilling [*] poli-sci majors to natter on about things like the > environment and social justice? I don't wanna keep seeing the same > hands, here. > > Does WalMart offer sub"standard" wages? Compared to what? Tell you what - > if you want to fix that, join me in going to WalMart and taking the workers > aside and asking if they'd mind us teaching them how to fix cars or build > houses or process mortgage loans or program .NET applications. What sort > of responses do you think we'll get? Seriously - why are these people > there, if it's so bad? > > Back to St. Paul; I've had my fill of my neighbors deciding what business > are or are not "good" for "society". Ten years ago, a bunch of > self-appointed, self-righteous, self-aggrandizing, self-glorifying > "activists" launched a two pronged campaign of back-room > influence-mongering and personal smears to drive an honest man and good, > local businessman - Greg Perkins of St. Paul Firearms - out of > business. "Democracy" in action in Saint Paul - a pack of moral > brownshirts smearing and attacking a guy who'd put his life's savings into > an honest, rigorously code-compliant business based on their superstitions > and petty (and groundless) fears. > > So thank you very much, I've had enough of the way my neighbors apply > "democracy" to the market in St. Paul. Given a choice between Walmart and > the usual opposition, I'll take Walmart. > > Mitch Berg > Da Midway! > > Shot In The Dark > Real Democracy in Action > http://www.mitchberg.com/shotindark/ > > > [*] ...and why IS it that coffee-shop coffee from the likes of Dunn > Brothers and Ginkgo et al - the fuel of the perpetually indignant and the > dispossessed college kid with the $75,000 degree who so despise capitalism > - is always grown in countries with the most noxious, repressive > governments? Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Indonesia and East African banana > republics with human rights records that'd make Human Rights Watch pine for > the good old days of Batista all supply the caffeine that warms the > organic-alpaca-clad hordes on their way to the vigil protesting our > "barbaric conquest" of Iraq. Whither reason? > > > _____________________________________________ > NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul > > Archive Address: > http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ > _____________________________________________ > For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html > For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract > _____________________________________________ NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your password - visit: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/listinfo/stpaul Archive Address: http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/ _____________________________________________ For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract
