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Community Forum on Job Shadowing in
St. Paul High Schools May 17 - 28
http://www.stpauljobshadow.org
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Mike:
I agree wholeheartedly with you. I am very involved in with my children's
education. When I wrote in my email, yesterday, I indicated that many
parents are not involved because they feel it is the system's responsibility
to educate and work out the problematic issues that come up with their kids
in school. I didn't say I agreed. I don't in any way, shape or form agree.
I will state though that I believe we intervene too much in the system and
make it easier for people to abdicate their responsibilities in this regard.
We don't seem to ever let the students experience the "consequences" of
their behaviors, or the parents for that matter.
I say, if a student is unable to put their nose to the grindstone and
succeed, and would rather be elsewhere, then it is fruitless to continue to
try to convince the student this is where they should be, particularly if
the parents take no responsibility for their behavior, their upbringing,
their discipline, and their scholastic achievement. There should be a way
to actually remove them from school after a certain number of skirmishes,
and let them reapply at their own expense when natural consequences teach
them that you need an education to move into society with any kind of hope
for a good job. This may delay their education, but it won't kill them. It
will simply let them realize that THEY need to take responsibility and
mentally and emotionally INVEST in their own education. You can lead a
horse to water, but you cannot make them drink. But when the horse is able
to experience their thirst, the job will be easy.
When students act out in school regardless of the reason, and cause other
students who are behaving and wanting to learn, to receive an unequal
education because of it, we are not dealing with discipline in a manner that
really solves the problem. We allow students to have multiple suspensions,
and return to school in spite of bad behavior. And when we assess they are
truly incorrigable we just administratively move them to another school,
which never really solves the problem, but allows them to do more of the
same at another school, with other teachers, and causing an entirely
different group or students to have to put up with the problem. I would say
that if my child were ever suspended, for any reason, it would never happen
again! But we let this practice continue, wasting everyone's time and
money.
My daughter graduated from the Saint Paul Schools and has gone on to great
success at The College of Saint Catherine. I have a son who attends
Arlington High School, by choice, both of my children chose Arlington High
School. It is an excellent school, despite what has been in the press over
the past four years. I believe Arlington has provided them with rich
opportunities for growth in education academically, but also socially. The
cultural diversity has been its own education, and I believe they are
well-rounded in their education. Could it be better? There is always room
for improvement. But Anne Carroll has it right, we keep moving towards
higher goals and we are striving to be better. We will never arrive at
perfection, but the in the striving we learn to appreciate how complex the
task is.
The constitution charges us to provide everyone with a equal education, it
does not state we are responsible for their ultimate success.
I believe that many of the students that ARE succeeding are doing so in
spite of conditions in the classroom that are stacked against them, such as
disruptive students that do not want to be there, and the teacher dedicating
too much teaching time to those that would rather cause trouble. Is this an
equal education? For whom? It might be an interesting premise to see what
might happen if a student of several students would sue the state for not
providing an equal education to them based on the fact that their classroom
is a war zone and not conducive to the learning process due to the constant
disruption by students who do not wish to take advantage of their education.
I wonder what would happen? I believe that the average and above average
students are the most forgotten groups, and they are the groups that are
sacrificed when the teacher is constantly dealing with the disruptive
students that keep getting circulated through the system.
One issue that causes more harm than good, is this constant re-do of the
educational system every four years, changing the standards and messing with
HOW we track and attain achievement. This is confusing and costly to
everyone. We cannot continue to do this. We seem to just get a solid
footing on where we are going and we change directions. This is a liitle
like planning a trip to Wyoming and ending up in Alaska. We need to
incrementally make improvements to the process as we need to adjust, but we
shouldn't be re-creating the wheel on the standards every few years. If it
confuses administrators and teachers, it is bound to be felt at the
student/parent level.
Our constant social intervention in people's lives soon make them believe
they are not capable of taking control and raising their own kids. I
believe that in some cases the school system with all of its interventions
in many cases cause parents to abdicate the responsibilities they should be
taking on in their child's education. I believe there is a fine line for
the school system between educating a child and interupting the parent/child
process of nurture and discipline. If we take on all of that on the side,
we will be taken away from our first charge; to simply provide an equal
educational opportunity for everyone. It is up to the student and the
parent to see they succeed. Put the responsibility back where it belongs,
the parents.
Pamela Ellison
Como Park
Saint Paul
Pamela Ellison
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Fratto" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Do SPPS "suck"?
> ------------------------------------------------
> Community Forum on Job Shadowing in
> St. Paul High Schools May 17 - 28
> http://www.stpauljobshadow.org
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> I tink the numbers Tom posted should send a signal. To whom is the
> real question. You can't blame a school, the system or the teachers
> entirely for child failure. however, you can blame the parents.
> its the school system's responsibility to teach the student. its
> the student's responsibility to study, do homework and learn.
>
> Let me tell you a true story. A boy, now 19 National honor
> Society, four merit badges away from Eagle Scout almost failed a
> couple of classes Senior year. Why? Because he didn't get his work
> done on time. Not only that but when the teacher informed his
> parents of missing assignments, mom blamed it on ADD. Dad's
> reaction was he needed to spend time doing homework and not blowing
> it off to go to softball games, playing video games or watching TV.
> Never did get his Eagle. Of course there was no motivation to do
> it.
>
> Second boy, now 16, always had trouble with certain subjects. His
> report cards always showed incomplete because homework was not
> turned in. Test scores were usually passing. Usually got in
> trouble at school for disrupting class. He didn't like the
> teachers. Mom blamed the teachers. Problem is this happened in
> every grade from 4th through Sophomore.
>
> When dad asks if homework was done before he went out, the answer
> was yes. Mom would pipe in and say it was done in school. Well, it
> wasn't done in school and he received more than his share of "F"s.
> Has this changed mom's attitude about his school work? No.
>
> Unfortunately its probably too late for this boy. Someone else
> needs to be able to get involved. Dad can't because mom, doesn't
> want to deal with the boy when he complains about dad's rules etc.
>
> Third boy, 8. In two years of grade school, mom may have asked
> about homework a half dozen times. Mostly when dad is on the road.
> Mom even misses school conferences. She has never worked with her
> son on spelling, math or reading, except when he remembers a missed
> assignment in the morning after dad went to work or when dad's
> frustration begins to show..
>
> Is the school at fault in any of these cases? Are the teachers at
> fault? IMHO No! Its the parents fault. As long as mom has no
> expectations she will get no results. As long as one parent's
> expectations are greater than the other, the lowest expectations
> will be met. As long as one parent continues to believe a child who
> continually lies about school work the lying will continue.
>
> I cite these examples to indicate how important the parents role is
> in educating their children. Yes boy 2 may have other issues that
> need to be dealt with professionally. But if there were stated and
> enforced expectations at home, I believe a lot of this would be
> mitigated.
>
> Mike Fratto
> Payne Phalen
>
>
> >>> Thomas Swift <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 05/24/2004 7:30:17 PM >>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Community Forum on Job Shadowing in
> St. Paul High Schools May 17 - 28
> http://www.stpauljobshadow.org
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Sometimes it's nice to just look at some facts without
> any spin or embellshments isn't it?
>
> So for your information, direct from the Department of
> Education website, I give you Saint Paul's cumulitive
> test scores for the 2004 MCA (Minnesota Comprehensive
> Assessments and let it do it's own talkin'. (I hope
> the formatting holds up this time.)
>
> The achievement levels 1-5 correspond from poor to
> excellent thus: 1-2 are below average; 3 is average;
> 4-5 are above average.
>
>
> Percent Percent Percent Percent Percent
> Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5
> =========================================
> 16.93 29.89 14.89 27.88 10.4 Grade 3 Math
> 23.21 23.79 14.12 25.14 13.74 Grade 3 Reading
> 9.65 34.15 16.95 29.65 9.61 Grade 5 Math
> 18 26.66 14.73 25.89 14.73 Grade 5 Reading
> 18.32 42.94 27.35 7.86 3.54 Grade 7 Math
> 15.2 44.17 23.44 14.58 2.6 Grade 7 Reading
>
>
> TJSwift
> Cherokee Park Collective
>
>
>
>
>
>
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