I agree - chuck was so respectful I hardly recognized him!  :-)

Just to go back in time, we brought in an ordinance crafted by a well known
law school and had our city attorney revise it to fit our ordinance and
hearing structure this spring.

We adapted it at the very beginning from a complete workplace ban.
1. We chose to not address outdoor service areas reasoning that our goal of
worker protection is not threatened by the mere whiff of smoke.
COMPROMISE NUMBER ONE.
2. We chose not to address proximity to entrances (where smokers will likely
go to toke up). Rationale - we are not cruel and we are not attempting to
ban tobacco even though there will be those who object.  We do realize that
if doorways are clogged with a stench this may well need to be revisited.
COMPROMISE NUMBER TWO.
3. We chose to specifically exclude hotel rooms even though other
jurisdictions didn't.  COMPROMISE NUMBER THREE
4. We  chose not to address city parks and open space. COMPROMISE NUMBEER
FOUR.
5. After the idea was brought forward by barowners we crafted and included
the smoking room exemption. We stated that the square footage of the room
was negotiable.  COMPROMISE NUMBER FIVE.
6. We considered bringing restaurants into compliance immediately (as in
bloomington i think) but instead looked at september of this year; then
moved to January 2, 2005; finally chose 31 March to become regioanlly
compliant. COMPROMISE NUMBER SIX +
7. As recently as week before last we met with the liquor dealers assciation
and offered to phase in - large rest/bars 31 March 2005; very small bars
January 2006. I gave it to them in writing. COMPROMISE NUMBER SEVEN.
8. We offered financial help to cleanup and fixup bars; financial support
for a citywide promotional campaign extolling smokefree neighborhood bars
and restaurants and concentrated cessation assistance and education -
especially in the african american community where black folks have been
targetted and preyed upon for years. COMPROMISES EIGHT, NINE and TEN.

I challenge anyone to identify any compromise by the mayor or opposition
councilmembers save the olmstead county model which appeared 4 weeks ago.
The only mantra we heard was "we want a statewide ban or nothing, and we
won't pledge to support  an unlikely statewide ban."  (parens are mine).
They have otherwise only offered air filters (which testimony concluded were
of no effect or a $100 or $200 charge to be labelled "not smokefree".  I
don't consider either of these as compromises.

Lets face it.  The bars have been terrorized by the tobacco messengers. Many
sincerely believe their business is threatened even though no one can
produce a bonafide study to show financial harm from smokefree. Most have
sincerely plead their case and I respect their fears. A couple others are
jerks (personal opinion softened considerably) and have personalized this
against members of the council with several varieties of threats and
insults.

The bottom line is that its been decades since the surgeon general declared
second hand smoke a health hazard.  Since then pro clean air advocates have
compromised on smoking/nosmoking areas, suffered with no movement on the
issue even into last years legislative session where a state ban couldn't
even get a hearing.

The tobacco industry is not rolling over.  A ban hurts their multinational
profits.  They are drug dealers whose product kills and have no consciences.
I do not apologize for this invective. It is true.  They rely on local
shills to advocate for them by proxy and they have mislead enough citizens,
businesspeople and politicians to slow an inevitable decline in tobacco
sales solely to sell a few more cartons of carcinigens.

We have talked, we have compromised, we have shown irefutable testimony and
support from our community's largest corporations and employers, we have
tried to bring bar and restaurant employees into the safety zone we afford
every other employer in the state.

Yet we still face a veto threat and an unlikely ability to pass this ban.

This summer was the region's finest hour in moving forward, but its saddest
in not being able to drive it home in st. paul.
I am happy for the movement but sad for the 1000's of low income workers who
will still inhale someone else's smoke and some of whom will die because of
it - just because of fear, selfishness and a lack of political courage.

dave thune
st. paul city council.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "List Manager" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 1:07 PM
Subject: [StPaul] Respectful Disagreement


> This afternoon, Tom Thompson make a very thoughtful and articulate
> post that reflected his own perspective on the smoking ban discussion.
>
> Other participants questioned his version of the "facts" and posted
> alternative versions of the story. That is completely appropriate and
> helpful in a discussion like ours.
>
> However, as some participants (Chuck Repke) demonstrated, that can be
> done without personally attacking or challenging the motivations of
> the original poster.
>
> Many of the "facts" posted to this forum are wrong or distorted by
> personal ideology. Both, the left, the right, and even the center are
> guilty of this. This forum gives us the opportunity to check our
> facts against each other and for multiple versions or perspectives to
> be put on the table.
>
> But, we can and must do this in a respectful manner.
>
> If we disagree with another members version of the "facts" or
> "history," we can and MUST respond without accusing them of
> ignorance, malfeasance, or personal mischief.
>
> That is simply the kind of space that this forum is set up to be.
> Those who participate in this forum, should be here with the
> willingness to hear viewpoints and versions of history that differ
> from their own and respond with respect and thoughtfulness. If you
> are unwilling to participate in this spirit, then please remove
> yourself from our mailing list.
>
> The goal or purpose of this space is to share information and ideas
> and discuss public policy. We don't make major decisions here, nor
> are we likely to prove that anyone is or is not correct, so please
> don't try.
>
> I've tried to demonstrate myself how one can disagree or even
> challenge others, while remaining respectful. I expect others to do
> the same.
>
> If you have comments or complaints about this post, list management,
> or E-Democracy - take them to the St. Paul Issues Forum Rules list.
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> Best wishes,
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>
> -- 
> Tim Erickson
> List Manager
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