I'm fascinated by the discussion that has ensued from the city council
announcement of Charlie Hales's streetcar presentations next week.
As a New Englander by birth, I need to ask if any of those who question
the value of a good rail system have lived in a city with one. Boston
is a dream - not to drive in - but for going anywhere you want to go, at
anytime of the day or evening (until about 2 a.m.) quickly, efficiently,
safely and cheaply. My mom, at 83, is nearly blind and unable to
drive, but she goes to Boston a couple of times a month by train for
meetings and social events.
I'm not sure why Minnesotans are so resistent to funding good transit.
New York City notwithstanding, in cities like Washington, D.C., London
and Montreal, you don't need to waste hard earned money on a car,
insurance and gas, because you can have a great life without one.
Jane Prince
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/10/2004 4:15:06 PM >>>
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Bring The Streetcars Back (Patty Sifferle)
2. Bring The Streetcars Back - We're still missing the big
picture here (Dan Dobson)
3. Re: Vision for Transit (John Harris)
4. Re: Vision for Transit (Erik Hare)
5. RE: Vision for Transit (Kevin Sands)
6. RE: Vision for Transit (John Harris)
7. Vision for Transit - Next Step (List Manager)
8. RE: Vision for Transit (M Charles Swope)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 12:26:32 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
From: Patty Sifferle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I agree that urban sprawl is definitely at the root of our current
transit headaches, and responsible urban planning needs to be part of
the discussion. Ted Mondale was warm to the concept, but the current
Met Council, ah... don't get me started. :(
-----Original Message-----
From: John Birrenbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Nov 10, 2004 10:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back
Final chance to comment on rules revision, go to:
http://e-democracy.org/rules
---------------------------------------
At 2:18 PM -0600 11/9/04, Andy Driscoll wrote:
> after William (?) Lowry built Archbishop
>John Ireland's Grand Avenue streetcar line all the way out to the
farm
>fields
As I read and re-read this and what I posted yesterday the more and
more I began to realize that what was built for Ireland, by Lowry, is
what started the urban sprawl to begin with, and is the root of the
whole metro area's current transit problems. We are sprawled out,
not up.
How Ironic that we are now looking at building is the very thing that
allowed communities like Merriam Park to SPRAWL out from the city of
St Paul and Mpls, which in turn eventually caused the very transit
issues we see today. See how the best laid plans of Mice and Men can
go awry?
Another part of the problem that really needs to be talked about is
the density of population per acre. It is my general understanding
that those Rail transit systems that work, not only for the consumer
but are also less of a drain on limited tax dollars, are those in
area's of extreme population density.
NY for example.... all those people living in apartments in the HEART
of the city (yea there are commuters, but look at the population
density of residents the vast majority of the systems users).
When you look at some of these cities, you see massive towers, for
MILES, packed with people. Here we have everyone spread out all over
the place (thanks to planning in the early part of this century).
I look at who is gonna end up paying for the vast majority of this.
I wonder what the rider costs vs the actual costs of setup and
running are going to be. Anyone know what the costs per passenger
are for the Hiawatha line vs the ticket price?
Is this a totally free ride at the expense of the taxpayers or is
it's costs going to be born, eventually, by the riders? If it's
going to be paid in total by ridership it seems to me that the
population density of the cities doesn't make that happen, unless
your able to drive and park at some station to ride the train.
If the costs are born by the taxpayers then there is no reason to not
start right now, it's only gonna get more expensive as time goes on.
If it's a free ride for anyone who wants to get on, it would
certainly increase ridership and reduce traffic on a scale never seen
before.
I have to agree with Eric that serious leadership needs to come from
the County, serious money too if they want us to run outside the
city. At the same time those other communities everyone is so quick
to say the eventual routes will run through need to be involved as
well... we don't need another 35E unconnected in the middle for three
decades do we?
--
Sincerely,
John Birrenbach
W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN
=== Political & Business Consulting ===
http://www.birrenbach.com/
======================================
The Counter to Republican Radio http://www.airamericaradio.com/
======================================
"Six years on the council has trained me to feign interest for long
periods of time"
Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004
+++++++++++++++
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 10:57:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Dobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [StPaul] Bring The Streetcars Back - We're still missing the
big picture here
To: John Birrenbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
While the nay-sayers keep talking about how mass
transit won't work, a very important part of the
equation has not been discussed. Today human beings
are using fossil fuels at the rate of 80 MILLION
BARRELS of oil a day, or 28 BILLION BARRELS a year.
http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/oil.html
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/ene_oil_con
http://www.bartleby.com/151/fields/82.html
If we continue to use fossil fuels at this rate, (this
does not include increased usage by Third World
Countries such as China and India), we will delete all
known petroleum reserves of 1,032,132 million barrels
or 1.032 Trillion barrels in 35 to 37 years, well
within the lifetime of a lot of people on this board.
Even if we double the amount of known reserves, say to
2.064 Trillion barrels, and keep usage at the present
level, we will delete most petroleum in 70 to 74
years.
Thus it is critical that we begin to convert our
transportation systems now, when there are funds and
fuels available. Do you really want to own a home in
Eden Prairie and Maplewood, or even further out, when
gas hits the equivalent of $6.00, $7.00 of $10.00 a
gallon or would you rather be able to walk from your
front door to a street-car or light rail system run by
electrcity?
Unless we begin to make a huge shift to a hydrogen
economy, created by wind and other renewables, come 50
to 100 years from now, the societal dislocations will
be so severe we can't even begin to imagine the
consequences today.
Hopefully, I'll be 85 years old driving my hydrogen
powered car with hydrogen created from tap water by my
own wind turbine, but where are the plans?
Dan Dobson
Summit Hill
--- John Birrenbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Final chance to comment on rules revision, go to:
> http://e-democracy.org/rules
> ---------------------------------------
> At 2:18 PM -0600 11/9/04, Andy Driscoll wrote:
> > after William (?) Lowry built Archbishop
> >John Ireland's Grand Avenue streetcar line all the
> way out to the farm
> >fields
>
> As I read and re-read this and what I posted
> yesterday the more and
> more I began to realize that what was built for
> Ireland, by Lowry, is
> what started the urban sprawl to begin with, and is
> the root of the
> whole metro area's current transit problems. We are
> sprawled out,
> not up.
>
> How Ironic that we are now looking at building is
> the very thing that
> allowed communities like Merriam Park to SPRAWL out
> from the city of
> St Paul and Mpls, which in turn eventually caused
> the very transit
> issues we see today. See how the best laid plans of
> Mice and Men can
> go awry?
>
> Another part of the problem that really needs to be
> talked about is
> the density of population per acre. It is my
> general understanding
> that those Rail transit systems that work, not only
> for the consumer
> but are also less of a drain on limited tax dollars,
> are those in
> area's of extreme population density.
>
> NY for example.... all those people living in
> apartments in the HEART
> of the city (yea there are commuters, but look at
> the population
> density of residents the vast majority of the
> systems users).
>
> When you look at some of these cities, you see
> massive towers, for
> MILES, packed with people. Here we have everyone
> spread out all over
> the place (thanks to planning in the early part of
> this century).
>
> I look at who is gonna end up paying for the vast
> majority of this.
> I wonder what the rider costs vs the actual costs of
> setup and
> running are going to be. Anyone know what the costs
> per passenger
> are for the Hiawatha line vs the ticket price?
>
> Is this a totally free ride at the expense of the
> taxpayers or is
> it's costs going to be born, eventually, by the
> riders? If it's
> going to be paid in total by ridership it seems to
> me that the
> population density of the cities doesn't make that
> happen, unless
> your able to drive and park at some station to ride
> the train.
>
> If the costs are born by the taxpayers then there is
> no reason to not
> start right now, it's only gonna get more expensive
> as time goes on.
> If it's a free ride for anyone who wants to get on,
> it would
> certainly increase ridership and reduce traffic on a
> scale never seen
> before.
>
> I have to agree with Eric that serious leadership
> needs to come from
> the County, serious money too if they want us to run
> outside the
> city. At the same time those other communities
> everyone is so quick
> to say the eventual routes will run through need to
> be involved as
> well... we don't need another 35E unconnected in the
> middle for three
> decades do we?
>
> --
> Sincerely,
> John Birrenbach
> W 7th Neighborhood, St Paul MN
> === Political & Business Consulting ===
> http://www.birrenbach.com/
> ======================================
> The Counter to Republican Radio
> http://www.airamericaradio.com/
> ======================================
> "Six years on the council has trained me to feign
> interest for long
> periods of time"
> Chris Coleman Jan 21, 2004
> +++++++++++++++
> _____________________________________________
> To Join: St. Paul Issues Forum Rules Discussion
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ____________________________________________
> NEW ADDRESS FOR LIST: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> To subscribe, modify subscription, or get your
> password - visit:
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>
> Archive Address:
> http://www.mnforum.org/mailman/private/stpaul/
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 11:13:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Vision for Transit
To: Kevin Sands <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> I have two major points to contest from other posts. First is that
many
> posts have basically been focusing on whether or not bus & rail
transit
> "pays for itself" through fares gathered. This ignores the fact that
roads
> do not come close to paying for themselves. A 2003 report by the
State
> Auditor calculated at least 35% of the costs of county roads and 60%
of the
> costs of city roads are paid for with property taxes. State roads
also get
> a good chunk of general fund $ - though I don't have the exact
numbers.
i don't see where the bulk of posts have focused on if transit pays for
itself.
some have mentioned it, sure. roads serve more of a purpose than
simply
moving commuters around. product is shipped in trucks over roads, your
police
and fire departments use roads to respond to calls for help, inspite of
what
metro transit would like you to believe, the fire department can't
respond to
calls on the bus. roads are a part of the economic engine serving as
a
facilitator. maybe this is factored in to the subsidies? if not
someone
smarter than me can figure that out.
john harris
camden
__________________________________
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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:42:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Erik Hare <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Vision for Transit
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Wed, 10 Nov 2004, Kevin Sands wrote:
> ... A 2003 report by the State
> Auditor calculated at least 35% of the costs of county roads and 60%
of the
> costs of city roads are paid for with property taxes.
I wasn't aware that the Auditor did such a report in 2003. Perhaps
you're
thinking of the article in the Star Tribune in October of 2003?
(wink)
> As far as streetcars in St. Paul - my organization does not have a
position
> on it at this time. Clearly experience in other cities shows
streetcars can
> be a unique and attractive alternative in certain locations.
And that's just where I think it should be at this time. Nothing
screws
up transportation more than coming into it with pre-conceived ideas,
and
then looking to justify them. Hell, one group will come in demanding
that
the needs of the car be met, for example, irregardless of anything.
That's where we get to a provable 3 cents a passenger mile in
infrastructural subsidy to the car. It's not planned, it's that no one
was paying attention.
> About plans for transit in St. Paul... The Union Depot is the
preferred
> choice for a transportation hub in St. Paul. A group called the
LOCATE Task
> Force exists to keep that idea alive in the heads of public officials
the
> Post Office - and coordinate with other planning groups. For a
little map
> of vision for transit in the St. Paul and the Twin Cities visit
> http://www.tlcminnesota.org/Factsheets/Transitways.htm
The way I always put it is, "I have a new and brilliant idea for the
rennovation of Union Depot -- let's use it as a train station!" I do
think that circulation to and in Downtown would be best helped by a
three-pronged approach -- The Depot to handle mass transit arrivals, a
hub
at Smith and Kellogg with parking for arrivals from the West and South,
and a hub with parking for the North and East around Embassy Suites.
Then, these are connected with a circulation system that also extends,
gradually, out lines such as Grand Avenue, East Seventh, etc.
The exact form these should all take I won't speculate on, as I'd like
to
see how many riders they'd have and if it makes economic sense.
Erik Hare [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://home.comcast.net/~wabbitoid/
Irvine Park, West End, Saint Paul, Minnesota, USA, North America,
Earth
Fine Amish furniture, cedar chests, and crafts
http://www.harmonycedar.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 15:34:26 -0600
From: "Kevin Sands" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [StPaul] Vision for Transit
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: 'John Harris' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
When talking about the streetcar specifically and transit in general
people
have been talking about the affordability of these projects.
My point is that you cannot make decisions on affordability without
comparing these projects to the costs and benefits of alternatives. It
quickly becomes a mess of complicated calculations and value judgments.
You are right that roads are used for many critical services and
certainly
deserve a share of property taxes - I am not advocating for that to
end.
But transit has many associated benefits too:
- mobility for elderly & youth & other non-drivers,
- reducing the need to set aside valuable space for parking,
- giving families the option to take the money they would have spent on
an
additional car and instead spend that money on other things - like
investing
in a home or paying their health care bills
- improving public health - both by encouraging walking and by
potentially
reducing pollution (thereby reducing asthma attacks for example)
- and the list goes on...
The bottom line is that Minnesota decision makers have been and want
to
continue pumping billions (yes billions) of dollars every year into
maintaining and expanding our transportation system in Minnesota -
often in
the hopes of alleviating congestion and/or fostering economic
development.
St. Paul residents need to be concerned where that money (both state &
local) is going.
Are we targeting the most efficient ways to alleviate congestion?
Is that money helping us meet our other goals - neighborhood livability
-
public health - environmental protection - economic development?
Do we want to dedicate more space to bigger roads & big parking lots
and
garages?
Or can we use those funds to build destinations and/or other more
effective
tools of economic development?
You could even ask is St. Paul getting its fair share - but that adds
an
additional layer of complication.
So back to the streetcar - could it work in various corridors in St.
Paul?
Likely yes - but it really depends on where the money comes from and
what
benefits you want to track and how much you value the various benefits
- not
to mention the state of the surrounding transportation system and the
existence of developments that will feed ridership. Your opinion of
the
effectiveness of Hiawatha LRT depends on similar judgments & issues.
Kevin Somdahl Sands - Administrator - Transit for Livable Communities
Resident - Midway Neighborhood
-----Original Message-----
From: John Harris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 1:14 PM
To: Kevin Sands; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [StPaul] Vision for Transit
> I have two major points to contest from other posts. First is that
many
> posts have basically been focusing on whether or not bus & rail
transit
> "pays for itself" through fares gathered. This ignores the fact
that
roads
> do not come close to paying for themselves.
i don't see where the bulk of posts have focused on if transit pays
for
itself. some have mentioned it, sure. roads serve more of a purpose
than
simply moving commuters around. product is shipped in trucks over
roads,
your police and fire departments use roads to respond to calls for
help,
inspite of what metro transit would like you to believe, the fire
department
can't respond to calls on the bus. roads are a part of the economic
engine
serving as a facilitator. maybe this is factored in to the subsidies?
if
not someone smarter than me can figure that out.
john harris
camden
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 13:47:01 -0800 (PST)
From: John Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [StPaul] Vision for Transit
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> - giving families the option to take the money they would have spent
on an
> additional car and instead spend that money on other things - like
investing
> in a home or paying their health care bills
I wanted to buy in until the above statement. Maybe i am naive but are
there
really people out there buying 2nd automobiles instead of buying a home
and or
paying their health care bills?
I so suppose that it has come to where you need to sensationalize the
issue to
win arguments.
on the pollution, doesn't it really just move where the pollution
occurs?
creating electricity, creates pollution.
john harris
camden
__________________________________
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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 16:01:13 -0600
From: List Manager <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [StPaul] Vision for Transit - Next Step
To: "St. Paul Issues Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
This topic - at this time, appears to have touched a nerve.
Would anyone be willing to organize an informal E-Democracy
discussion on transit options for St. Paul in a local coffee shop.
I'm free next Wednesday or Thursday evening.
BUT, I need someone else to pick a venue, confirm space, and write an
announcement.
Anyone?
--
Tim Erickson
List Manager
St. Paul Issues Forum
http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/
Hamline Midway Resident
651-643-0722
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
St. Paul Links - http://www.e-democracy.org/stpaul/links.html
"The St. Paul Issues Forum is a interactive e-mail discussion on
important issues about St. Paul public policy. Participation is free
and open to anyone. We currently have about 350 concerned citizens
and community leaders subscribed to our discussion."
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:14:59 -0800 (PST)
From: M Charles Swope <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [StPaul] Vision for Transit
To: John Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- John Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"on the pollution, doesn't it [electrically powered
mass transit]really just move where the pollution
occurs? creating electricity, creates pollution."
Depending on how it is generated, yes, creating
electricity does produce some pollution. However, the
amount of energy and pollution required to move 300
people in a tram is far less than the amount of energy
and pollution required to move those same people in
individual automobiles or on buses.
And speaking of pollution, modern trams are far less
noisy than diesel powered buses.
Dublin, Ireland has recently opened two tram lines.
Within the city center they run on streets along with
automobiles while outside the center they run on a
separate right of way (note for Erik - partly on an
abandoned rail line). They are using the 300 person
capacity Alstom Citadis cars I mentioned in a previous
post. For an idea of what this looks like, see:
http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/40315-green.html
http://www.allaboutbuses.com/luas/40418-fulltest.html
Charlie Swope
Ward 1
------------------------------
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End of Stpaul Digest, Vol 11, Issue 22
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