Quoting Jonathan Revusky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
[snip]
First of all, as regards your statement above in which you refer to "someone else's website", I parse this to mean that you consider the jakarta.apache.org/struts website to be _yours_. As a matter of fact, it is not. It belongs to the Apache Software Foundation, a non-profit entity set up with a certain charter and that has received support from various organizations.
You are parsing the sentence in a manner that was not intended. That's your problem, not mine.
<sigh>
No, Craig. If you express yourself in such a way that a careful reader misinterprets what you said, it's your problem too. At the very least, it suggests that you did not express yourself clearly.
Anyway, as I read on, it is not clear at all to me that I misinterpreted your statement. From this very message I am responding to, it seems that my interpreation was correct: you relate to the struts website as your personal site and it does not occur to you that you are subject to constraints relating to professionalism or ethics or even-handedness in the maintenance of the site. At least there is no sign of this.
However, it's interesting to note that from a legal perspective, the Struts web
site *is* my site,
<sigh>
Well, you're just wrong about this and this can hardly be a matter of legitimate debate. From a legal perspective, the Struts web site is most certainly *not* _your_ site. The Struts web site belongs to the Apache Software Foundation, which is a separate juridical individual. You are a member of the ASF but you are not the ASF.
IBM belongs to its shareholders, but if I own some shares (even a lot, like a 1% stake) if I say that, therefore, the ibm.com website is "mine", I would be misspeaking. It belongs to IBM, a separate juridical individual.
So, basically, it is not *your* site. As a public service (my last here, I think) I'll clarify the concept further: if ASF has money in the bank, and you have check-writing privileges, it is still not *your* money. Moreover, there is an onus on you to spend the money responsibly that simply does not exist with your own personal checking account. By the same token, there is a very real difference between maintaining apache.org and maintaining a personal website that really does belong to *you*.
along with Ted Husted and the other 100-odd Members of the Apache Software Foundation, who jointly own all of the intellectual property, software, and web content you see at apache.org. Therefore, if I *had* intended the interpretation you parsed, it would have been perfectly within my legal rights to do so.
Yes, I suppose you would be within your legal rights to make such a statement -- since you can say what you want. However, the statement would still be erroneous. The Struts web site does not belong to you. That, and all of the related intellectual property belongs to ASF. You donated it. Just as you cannot have your cake and eat it too, you cannot donate your intellectual property to a separate juridical entity, and have it still be "yours". If you didn't quite understand this when you donated this stuff to ASF, that's a pity, but you should understand it next time round.
However, here at Apache, we treat website content like we do any other change to the software. In particular, changes are subject to post-commit -1s for reasonable concerns (and Ted's is -- see next response).
Craig, again I could be misparsing the above, but you seem to be saying that Ted's concerns are "reasonable" and the ones I have expressed are not. But frankly, you're kidding yourself. My reading of Ted's messages is that his concern is basically the same as what I have expressed -- the idea that you would use the fact that you are maintaining a part of the Apache.org website to retaliate against an individual for political speech that you disagree with.
Anyway, I'm not going to debate this any further with you, I don't think. I don't think we can have a debate. It is becoming blatantly obvious that you do not really master the basic concepts that one would need to master in order to debate this issue. This was pretty much apparent in the text of the initial commit message. However, it became all the more apparent as you added further comments in the thread.
Craig McClanahan (Among other things) Member, Apache Software Foundation
Yes, among other things... :-(
Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Using FreeMarker with Struts: http://freemarker.org/docs/pgui_misc_servlet.html
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