Andrew Pettit, and Mike Shaw espouse views that I support. The map is not the
territory, which in this case means that what actually happens and what we say
happens do not match. And if it is easier to understand a sundial by saying
that the sun moves across the sky, especially since that is what we see, why on
earth (sorry for the pun) complicate it when complicating the matter adds
nothing at all to the basic understanding.
What I say is that while the earth orbits the sun, which is the basis for
explaining the ecliptic, EOT, etc; for purposes of dial plate design, it is
simpler to say the sun orbits the earth. I see no drawbacks in that philosophy.
Perfection will never happen, it will only be approached. Each solution to a
problems is always the basis for the next problem. Ease of understanding in
this over complicated world is probably a benefit. Avoid confusing an accurate
display with accuracy, a digital clock that is set incorrectly is of little use.
Simon
Simon Wheaton-Smith
www.illustratingshadows.com
Silver City, New Mexico W108.2 N32.75 and
Phoenix, Arizona, W112.1 N33.5
From: Andrew Pettit <[email protected]>
To: 'Bill O'Neill' <[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: sundial Digest, Vol 72, Issue 11
I endorse all that Mike Shaw has said.
My understanding is that it's easier when trying to explain such concepts as
sundials and the "Equation of Time" it is "better" to regard the Earth as
stationary ~ just as the ancient astrologers did. The motion of the earth
around the sun is important in explaining the motion of the planets.
Philosophically the heliocentric system is to be preferred ~ until we need a
frame of reference based on galactic or intergalactic co-ordinates!
Which takes me back to Mike's point!
Hope that this helps. No doubt somebody will put my hat straight if it
doesn't.
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Bill O'Neill
Sent: 13 December 2011 12:03
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: sundial Digest, Vol 72, Issue 11
Hi All:
Why do people in the 21st century incorrectly continue to say "the sun
moves" across the sky?
We know the sun is generally and at all times in the same spot.
The truth, as we know and accept, is the earth moves. All of the phenomena
that happens because of the daily rotation and the year long trip around the
orbit is fascinating and proves how wrong was the idea that the sun moves.
It's not that our eyes give wrong information but that the mind came to
very wrong conclusions because of wrong conclusions about the information.
Wrong ideas are serious and to be avoided. Wrong ideas about the moving
earth and stationary sun got Bruno burned at the stake and Galileo thrown in
prison but the truth about the universe finally came out.
Perhaps it's easier to explain to children that the sun is moving but why
not explain to them as early as possible that the sun is in the same spot,
just like everything stays in the same spot as they move? They would grasp
the idea that shadows of the same things are different depending where they
are on the globe. They would learn the correct way to think about so many
phenomena, especially about sundials, instead of the age-old wrong ways.
Regards and enjoy the coming solstice.
Bill O'Neill
Holland, PA. USA
--------------------------------------------------
From: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 6:00 AM
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: sundial Digest, Vol 72, Issue 11
> Send sundial mailing list submissions to [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of sundial digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Alternative mapping sites (Richard Mallett)
> 2. the sun is out right now in Seattle! - live webcam view of
> large sundial (Woody Sullivan)
> 3. Re: Alternative mapping sites (John Pickard)
> 4. Re: Alternative mapping sites (Peter Mayer)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:18:56 +0000
> From: Richard Mallett <[email protected]>
> To: "J. Tallman" <[email protected]>
> Cc: Sundial Mailing List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Alternative mapping sites
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> On 18/11/2011 17:02, J. Tallman wrote:
>>
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I've received a lot of gracious help from this list over the 13+
>> years I have belonged to it, so when I find something I think might
>> be useful to list members I feel compelled to contribute.
>>
>> I'm still looking for alternative mapping/satellite photo sites in an
>> effort to better serve my non-dialist Spectra customers who are not
>> inclined to do remote declination shadow measurements for me. Today I
>> found this one, and it has much more recent photography than Google
>> Earth/Maps for the neighborhood I am seeking, but I still haven't
>> found what I need. It may or may not be useful in all places, but I
>> never heard of it before, so here you go:
>>
>> http://maps.nokia.com
>>
>> Again, if anyone knows of good alternative mapping sites to try when
>> GE is lacking, constructive suggestions would be appreciated...and
>> thank you to all those list members who have taken the time to help
>> me with questions in the past -- I appreciate it!
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jim Tallman
>>
>> www.spectrasundial.com
>>
>> www.artisanindustrials.com <http://www.artisanindustrials.com/>
>>
>> [email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>
> I certainly like this one better than the other one.
>
> --
> --
> Richard Mallett
> Eaton Bray, Dunstable
> South Beds. UK
>
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> scrubbed...
> URL:
> <https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/private/sundial/attachments/201112
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:45:53 -0800
> From: Woody Sullivan <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: the sun is out right now in Seattle! - live webcam view of
> large sundial
> Message-ID: <a062408aacb0c1805b718@[192.168.1.3]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
> Dear list: I couldn't resist - it happens so rarely in December near
> declination -23 deg! - Woody
>
> http://sunny.astro.washington.edu
>
> ====================
>
> Dear gnomonic world,
>
> We are pleased to announce the public launch of our SundialCam website
>
> http://sunny.astro.washington.edu
>
> at which you can see a live image, updated once per minute (even at
> night!), of the large wall dial on the Physics/Astronomy Building of
> the University of Washington, Seattle, USA. It is the only such active
> webcam in the world, and we know that some of you will want to stare
> at it for hours on end (or at least bookmark it...). You can monitor
> not only the time in Seattle, but also the weather - once in a while
> we have been known to have some rain (although it's clear right now
> and the there's a lunar eclipse underway!).
> The website has many features including our first two time-lapse
> movies, of the all-day shadow on the summer solstice and on the autumn
> equinox. (We also link to many other sundial time-lapse movies done by
> others in the past.) There are also details of the webcam setup, the
> dial itself, sundials in general, etc.
> We will be adding time-lapses over the coming months, including
> eventually all-year-long analemmas. We will also shortly be improving
> the present camera so as to have higher-resolution images and more
> reliabilty. If we should be off-line when you check (it happens once
> in a while), please check again after a day.
> We look forward to feedback from the international gnomonic community,
> as well as information on any links we may have missed to other such
> efforts now or in the past.
>
> Cheers, Woody Sullivan & Ian Smith
>
> ++++++++++++++++++
>
> Seattle Sundial Trail: http://www.sundials.co.uk/~seattle.htm
>
> What you seek is but a shadow
> --
>
> ******************************************************************
> Prof. Woodruff T. Sullivan, III
> Dept. of Astronomy & Astrobiology Program Box 351580
> Univ. of Washington tel.
> 206-543-7773
> Seattle, WA 98195 USA fax 206-685-0403
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:59:34 +1100
> From: "John Pickard" <[email protected]>
> To: "Richard Mallett" <[email protected]>, "Sundial List"
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Alternative mapping sites
> Message-ID: <B75AD158BE104C16B3223B06EC97931E@DESKTOP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Good morning,
>
> For various parts of Australia, NearMap offers high-res imagery with
> amazing detail. They apparently take their own air photos, and for
> some areas, they have a time-series of earlier imagery.
>
> Home page: https://www.nearmap.com/welcome-new (log-in for personal
> use)
>
> Areas covered:
> http://files.nearmap.com/public/website/NearMap-PhotoMap-Coverage.pdf
>
> With the huge expansion of mining in Australia, their new coverage of
> mining areas in NW Western Australia is impressive.
>
> Cheers, John
>
> John Pickard
> [email protected]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Richard Mallett
> To: J. Tallman
> Cc: Sundial Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 4:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Alternative mapping sites
>
>
> On 18/11/2011 17:02, J. Tallman wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>
>
> I've received a lot of gracious help from this list over the 13+
> years I have belonged to it, so when I find something I think might be
> useful to list members I feel compelled to contribute.
>
>
>
> I'm still looking for alternative mapping/satellite photo sites in
> an effort to better serve my non-dialist Spectra customers who are not
> inclined to do remote declination shadow measurements for me. Today I
> found this one, and it has much more recent photography than Google
> Earth/Maps for the neighborhood I am seeking, but I still haven't
> found what I need. It may or may not be useful in all places, but I
> never heard of it before, so here you go:
>
>
>
> http://maps.nokia.com
>
>
>
> Again, if anyone knows of good alternative mapping sites to try
> when GE is lacking, constructive suggestions would be appreciated.and
> thank you to all those list members who have taken the time to help me
> with questions in the past - I appreciate it!
>
>
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Jim Tallman
>
> www.spectrasundial.com
>
> www.artisanindustrials.com
>
> [email protected]
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
> I certainly like this one better than the other one.
>
>
> --
> --
> Richard Mallett
> Eaton Bray, Dunstable
> South Beds. UK
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
> scrubbed...
> URL:
> <https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/private/sundial/attachments/201112
> 13/e7fdb219/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:30:17 +1030
> From: Peter Mayer <[email protected]>
> To: John Pickard <[email protected]>
> Cc: Sundial List <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Alternative mapping sites
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for the link. It's quite amazing, at least for Oz: MUCH better
> than GE!
>
> best wishes,
>
> Peter
>
> On 13/12/2011 09:29, John Pickard wrote:
>> Good morning,
>> For various parts of Australia, NearMap offers high-res imagery with
>> amazing detail. They apparently take their own air photos, and for
>> some areas, they have a time-series of earlier imagery.
>> Home page: https://www.nearmap.com/welcome-new (log-in for personal
>> use) Areas covered:
>> http://files.nearmap.com/public/website/NearMap-PhotoMap-Coverage.pdf
>> With the huge expansion of mining in Australia, their new coverage of
>> mining areas in NW Western Australia is impressive.
>> Cheers, John
>> John Pickard
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Richard Mallett <mailto:[email protected]>
>> *To:* J. Tallman <mailto:[email protected]>
>> *Cc:* Sundial Mailing List <mailto:[email protected]>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 13, 2011 4:18 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: Alternative mapping sites
>>
>> On 18/11/2011 17:02, J. Tallman wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello All,
>>>
>>> I?ve received a lot of gracious help from this list over the 13+
>>> years I have belonged to it, so when I find something I think
>>> might be useful to list members I feel compelled to contribute.
>>>
>>> I?m still looking for alternative mapping/satellite photo sites in
>>> an effort to better serve my non-dialist Spectra customers who are
>>> not inclined to do remote declination shadow measurements for me.
>>> Today I found this one, and it has much more recent photography
>>> than Google Earth/Maps for the neighborhood I am seeking, but I
>>> still haven?t found what I need. It may or may not be useful in
>>> all places, but I never heard of it before, so here you go:
>>>
>>> http://maps.nokia.com
>>>
>>> Again, if anyone knows of good alternative mapping sites to try
>>> when GE is lacking, constructive suggestions would be
>>> appreciated?and thank you to all those list members who have taken
>>> the time to help me with questions in the past ? I appreciate it!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Jim Tallman
>>>
>>> www.spectrasundial.com
>>>
>>> www.artisanindustrials.com <http://www.artisanindustrials.com/>
>>>
>>> [email protected]
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>>
>>
>> I certainly like this one better than the other one.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Richard Mallett
>> Eaton Bray, Dunstable
>> South Beds. UK
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>
> --
> --------------------------
> Peter Mayer
> Politics Department
> The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph : +61 8 8303 5606 Fax :
> +61 8 8303 3443
> e-mail: [email protected]
> CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
> -----------------------------------------------------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> sundial mailing list
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>
>
> End of sundial Digest, Vol 72, Issue 11
> ***************************************
>
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