"Christopher Saul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Curt Cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> From the doc, THINC requires Xfree86 to be running and needs some 
> kind of client software on the client device.  This means it 
> requires some kind of OS at this stage.

THINC needs an OS on the server to host its XFree86 X server, just as
Sun Ray needs an OS (Solaris or Linux) to host its X server and other
SRSS components.  On the client side the THINC viewer was implemented 
as an application over a traditional general-purpose OS but that's just 
for convenience.  It's no stretch at all to imagine a THINC viewer
running in dedicated hardware over a small embedded OS, just like Sun
Ray.

> > I wasn't talking about adopting the entire protocol, but merely 
> > specific details from it.
> >
> > See page 11 for an example:
> > "While Sun Ray and THINC use a similar multicommand protocol, Sun 
> > Ray is unable to leverage..."

The rest of that sentence happens to be wrong.  I'm not sure whether
that makes this a good example or a bad one.

> > Is offscreen drawing somehow impossible within the current Sun 
> > Ray architecture?

It's not impossible at all.  Whether it's actually useful is a 
different question.  I can see how it could reduce latency, which
is that claim that THINC makes, but it's not free.  The X server 
ends up doing a lot of extra work, much of which may never be used.
Netscape and its heirs are very fond of creating huge numbers of
offscreen pixmaps, many of which never get drawn onto the screen.
Is it a good use of CPU time (and memory) to pre-render those 
pixmaps just in case some of them do eventually get shown?  What's
the impact of pre-rendering lots of pixmaps on a machine that is
hosting lots of sessions?

It's very hard to draw solid conclusions about the goodness of the
THINC approach versus the Sun Ray approach from that paper, there
are just so many factors that are different or are unaccounted-for.

One thing that is clear (it's been clear for a long time) is that 
Sun Ray's video performance is weak.  The reason is that the player 
application ends up having to use ordinary X pixmaps to play the 
video frames, and it has to send those pixmaps through the X server.
There's a ton of overhead in this process, it's just the wrong tool 
for the job.

The annoying thing is that Sun Ray actually has some interesting 
technology in this area; it supports the notion of having the player 
application bypass the X server completely and render the video 
directly to the Sun Ray.  This is a huge win both for the performance 
of that one video stream and for the number of concurrent streams you 
can drive from one machine.  The bad news is that this approach 
requires getting into the guts of the player application and writing
an output codec specifically for Sun Ray.  This turns out to be
impractical in the real world, it's been released only for Sun's 
now-dead ShowMeTV product.

One of the things on the wish list for a future SRSS release is 
to implement the XVideo extension in the Sun Ray X server.  This
is the same extension THINC used, it allows the player to send
video data through the X server with far lower overhead than
using X pixmaps.  It's not as good as rendering directly from
the player to the client but it has the huge advantage of being
supported by lots of players and not requiring a client-specific 
codec for every player.  

We're in the middle of haggling over the feature list for the 
next release, so now would be an excellent time to let your Sun
contacts know what features are important to you.  If lots of
people tell us that video is important then that increases the 
chances of XVideo happening.

OttoM.
__ 
ottomeister

Disclaimer: These are my poinions.  I do not speak for my employer.


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