On Thu, Jul 22, 2004 at 03:35:40PM +0200, Zenon Panoussis wrote: > > Toad wrote: > > >>Well, this contradics what you just wrote above. If you are right > >>on this point, then your fears about thousands of users leeching > >>and burdening freenet without giving anything back are unfounded > >>already because of this, even disregarding my arguments above. Or > >>vice versa. Of course, if you're right on this, then running the > >>thing would be fairly meaningless. However, as long as it's not > >>damaging, it doesn't matter much if it's meaningless; when I > >>realise that I'll just take it down. > > >No, because they are not indexed, because we send a robots directive on > >fproxy IIRC. > > Uhm, that's a bit too laconic for me. Please explain. Are > you saying that a request for a key will be sent out even > if the key is present in the local store? But yet, if the > usage is low, the network burden will be low either way.
They are not indexed by google because by default fproxy sends a robots.txt indicating that it shouldn't be spidered. > > >E. You get slimed in the press and elsewhere as a paedophile because you > >provide child porn. > > If the prosecuror has ordered me to block it, I don't > provide it. If the prosecutor has not ordered me to block > it, I think "you're barking up the wrong tree, here's the > phone number to the prosecuror" is an adequate public > defence. I also think the blood-thirst of the press can > be somewhat mitigated by a well-done portal and FAQ. > > [openness vs closed circuit] > > >Perhaps so. I suspect that Freenet will gradually have to get less open, > >but we'll see. When it's fairly closed is exactly the time when it's > >most vital. But right now, openness is good. > > It's a very difficult assessment, if not impossible. All > one can do is try to use good judgement and hope for the > best. > > ["self-regulation"] > > >The really nasty governments are of course the worst in this. Chinese > >ISPs etc are encouraged to censor their clients, without generally > >having any explicit idea what the rules are. In the West, ISPs generally > >don't go looking for content they don't like on their customers' sites. > >The way this happens is simply that they have all-encompassing AUPs so > >that if they get a threatening letter they can dump you with no > >liability themselves. Which of course they do. > > Yet I see a bigger problem in the west than in China. In > China, the government is involved and actively participates > in the censorship. Therefore, China is on every list of > every state and of every NGO who monitors censorship, and > gets fingers pointed at it all over the place. But the US? > Europe? Censorship, no sir, we have nothing of the kind here; > that's the official approach and it works very well too. > We get censored and our governments get to keep their good > reputation and stay out of disturbing political winds too. > > The latest drive is "hate speech", with France and Germany > pulling the strings. If they get their way, anything that > happens to disturb some group - especially some non-negligible > minority - will be illegal. Little do they understand that > if you want to fight neonazism, racism, anti-semitism, > whatever, you need to see your enemy, you need to let him > talk so that you can trash him. Agreed. We have incitement to racial hatred laws, they've been trying to get an incitement to religious hatred law in... > > >Establishing that Freenet is slow and only used to distribute illegal > >content is a disadvantage. > > But freenet *is* slow and it is *not* only used to distribute > illegal content. In fact, the little I've looked around, I > didn't run across any content that would be illegal in the > west. Of course it's there, I'm just saying it doesn't seem > to be predominant. Well then either you didn't look very hard, or your node isn't working very well. :| > > [capability to comply with orders] > > >Sadly, all nodes are capable of compliance with "don't serve key X" > >orders, they just have to modify the code. Since it is open source, this > >is easy. > > Not for a non-programmer. I wouldn't know how to do it and > current legislation does not require me to learn java. Besides, > before you can serve an order to a freenode, you need to find > it. And even if X node would block Y key, the same content > would reappear under a different key, as well as under the > old key on node Z. So they go after us and make us provide a version with that option. > > [precedents and their effects] > > >No. You go to jail, your ISP gets away with it. Because you're not an > >ISP. They'd find some way to fudge it. > > In this you might very well be right. Over-estimating the > legal system is among the most stupid things one can do. > Admittedly I've done it more than once. > > [immunity to civil suits] > > >LOL. Co$ strikes again! ;) > > Really, I should put a big banner on the portal, "this site > was made possible through the kind cooperation of the church > of scientology". That would at least put the kiddie porn to > a good use ;) ROFL. > > [Al Quaeda hacked] > > >Uhm, there's a real AQ site?! > > There was, although it wasn't called that; it was the site > of some or other moslim foundation, on which AQ communiqu??s > often appeared first hand. It went down a year ago or so. > > [not logging] > > >No, but they can compel you to keep more logs. In UK law, they can > >compel you to keep more logs and require you to continue running the > >node, and not tell anyone (including the judiciary) about it. > > They can't have it both ways. Indeed I don't enjoy the > protection that ISPs enjoy, but also, precisely because > I'm not an ISP, they can't compel me to log, or to run > a service in the first place. You want logs? Sorry, the > service is gone, your telecommunications act is not > applicable on me, go re-write it and then come back. Okay, they can't compel you to keep running it. What they can do is compel you not to tip off anyone that you are logging. But perhaps other jurisdictions are more sane. > > Besides, if logs is what they want, it would be far > easier for them to run their own proxy than to start > quarreling with me on this issue. I am not to be trusted > in such matters, there is a serious risk that I would > post on freenet/usenet/whatever that they are demanding > logs and my proxy is turning into a trap. A professionally- > working prosecutor who doesn't want his investigation > ruined would probably assess this risk correctly and not > try to use me as an instrument for his investigation. > Then again, there are plenty of unprofessionally-working > prosecutors out there, I'll grant you that. > > [Flashback] > > >You will get exactly the same problems with child porn, and probably > >other sites, that may be on Freenet. The trouble with democracy is that > >the mob generally want what you don't want. > > Indeed, but a good democracy is not the dictatorship of the > proletariat. If what we have is not a good democracy, then > so much more a reason to try to make it one, or at least to > not give in to the mob. The proletariat are the majority. Democracy is "the rule of the mob". And btw, they're not proles. They're middle class in the modern newspeak. They're middle income. They just read the Sun ;). Seriously, it's a lot easier to convince the average person that Freenet is evil than that it is needed. > > Z -- Matthew J Toseland - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freenet Project Official Codemonkey - http://freenetproject.org/ ICTHUS - Nothing is impossible. Our Boss says so.
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