Hey nice one Natasha thanks for your input - very interesting . On 12 December 2012 18:20, Natasha Barrett <[email protected]> wrote:
> Silent reader, but chip in here with my practical experience of WFS, HOA > and NFC-HOA (as I guess you know the theory): > > 1. Proximity illusions on WFS at IRCAM: all four sides WFS arrays (BTW > flat along the walls), sounds appear beside 'you', but then 'you' have to > be in the right place. Kind of like one sweet spot for each sound point > (and of course you have to be on the correct side of the traveling > wavefront). Therefore there are mixing and composition tactics to get the > best out of WFS proximity illusion. It sounds super, but as all > spatialisation is in real-time you loose the advantage of HOA's > encoding-decoding separation. > > 2. Proximity illusions on HOA at IRCAM: I worked with 7th order 3D over 75 > loudspeakers and 12th order 2D over 25 loudspeakers. HOA alone will not, > and is not supposed to, make *focused* sounds inside the array. HOWEVER, > with the orders I worked with there are tricks to with sound motion, > mixing, contrast, sound sources etc that gives the illusion of 'something' > inside the array. But remember that this is to do with artistic use of the > sound rather than embedded in the technology itself. And of course these > high orders gave an enormous sweet spot / stable listening area! Completely > different sound to WFS and it was great to use HOA and WFS at the same > time! In fact quite depressing to return to my own lower order composition > studio. > > I also made practical tests with implementations of published NFC-HOA > theory (near-field compensated HOA). There is definitely something > interesting perceptually - a 'kind of' focused source inside the array > effect, not as spooky clear as WFS, but heard for the complete audience. > With NFC the bass boost is still an issue even with compensation filters > that end up removing the NFC effect (and so the technology still has some > way to go). > > Happy spatialising! > > Natasha > > > On Dec 12, 2012, at 6:00 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > > Send Sursound mailing list submissions to > > [email protected] > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > [email protected] > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > [email protected] > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Sursound digest..." > > > > > > When replying, please remember to edit your Subject line to that of the > original message you are replying to, so it is more specific than "Re: > Contents of Sirsound-list digest..." so that it matches the post you are > replying to. > > > > Also, please EDIT the quoted post so that it is not the entire digest, > but just the post you are replying to. > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Height localisation in a speaker triangle (J?rn Nettingsmeier) > > 2. Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (Augustine Leudar) > > 3. a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse response > > (Pierre Alexandre Tremblay) > > 4. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (David Pickett) > > 5. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (Augustine Leudar) > > 6. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (J?rn Nettingsmeier) > > 7. Re: a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse > > response (Augustine Leudar) > > 8. Re: Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA (Augustine Leudar) > > 9. Re: a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse > > response (Anthony Palomba) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 21:26:47 +0100 > > From: J?rn Nettingsmeier <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Sursound] Height localisation in a speaker triangle > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > > > Hi *! > > > > > > At the Tonmeistertagung in Cologne last month, I made the acquaintance > > of Mike Williams, recording engineer and long-time AES contributor. He > > confronted me with an interesting claim while we were discussing the > > Auro-3D layout: according to Mike, there is precise height localisation > > between a front L/R pair and a front height center, much better than the > > "either up or down" kind of thing we've come to expect from Auro rigs > > where height speakers are right above the floor ones. Which is why he is > > proposing height speakers at 0?, 90?, 180? and 270?. > > > > I haven't been able to look into this, and my gut feeling is that what > > Mike describes as precise height localisation during source movements is > > in fact a projection of the diagonal movement onto the horizontal plane > > (where our hearing apparatus is most discriminating), and the brain > > subconciously fills in the height based on a-priori knowledge of intent > > and speaker position. The only way to find out is a blind listening > > test, but maybe the patrons of this list have tried it and are able to > > comment? > > > > Because if Mike's claim is true (or even just marginally helpful), then > > even if it's only about amplitude panning, we might exploit it for the > > design of Ambi rigs in the rE realm. I recall people have argued in > > favor of twisted rings before - maybe this is a case in point? > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > J?rn > > > > > > -- > > J?rn Nettingsmeier > > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > > > Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) > > Tonmeister VDT > > > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 12:10:28 +0000 > > From: Augustine Leudar <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > > To: [email protected] > > Message-ID: > > < > cabx2jurqtss-l+ug7fgq8gxpd13bplkpohdbkwezuoxusvw...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Ok lets have a proximity off ! > > One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is creating > > proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would choose > > WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could > > create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I > > haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ > speakers) > > - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if > > I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I > > have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was > better > > but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back > > from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to > those > > that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - > > which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity > illusions > > ? > > Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/d28778e8/attachment.html > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 14:50:27 +0000 > > From: Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <[email protected]> > > Subject: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an impulse > > response > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Dear all > > > > Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to > use and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). > This time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with > some of the tools for MaxMSP. > > > > Feel free to watch it here: > > > > https://vimeo.com/55440630 > > > > The paper and all the externals are still available here: > > > > http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ > > > > Let us know what you think! > > > > p > > > > ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:43:44 -0600 > > From: David Pickett <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > > I must have missed the beginning of this. > > > > What does WFS stand for? "W... Field System"? > > > > David > > > > At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: > >> Ok lets have a proximity off ! > >> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is > creating > >> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would > choose > >> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could > >> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I > >> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ > speakers) > >> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if > >> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I > >> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was > better > >> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back > >> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to > those > >> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - > >> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity > illusions > >> ? > >> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > >> -------------- next part -------------- > >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> URL: > >> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201212 > >12/d28778e8/attachment.html> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:15:40 +0000 > > From: Augustine Leudar <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > < > cabx2jurpkjbqlxdpwsos3hxqwpuabw6w7xeyddv1kf-bc0m...@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > sorry - wfs - wavefield synthesis - HOA - higher order ambisonics > > > > On 12 December 2012 14:43, David Pickett <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I must have missed the beginning of this. > >> > >> What does WFS stand for? "W... Field System"? > >> > >> David > >> > >> > >> At 06:10 12-12-12, Augustine Leudar wrote: > >>> Ok lets have a proximity off ! > >>> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is > creating > >>> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would > choose > >>> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could > >>> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I > >>> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ > >> speakers) > >>> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't > if > >>> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. > I > >>> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was > >> better > >>> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back > >>> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to > >> those > >>> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) > - > >>> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity > >> illusions > >>> ? > >>> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > >>> -------------- next part -------------- > >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >>> URL: > >>> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/private/sursound/** > >> attachments/201212< > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201212> > >>> 12/**d28778e8/attachment.html> > >>> _____________________________**__________________ > >>> Sursound mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound< > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound< > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 07580951119 > > > > augustine.leudar.com > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/bff73e9a/attachment.html > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 6 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 16:13:51 +0100 > > From: J?rn Nettingsmeier <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 12/12/2012 01:10 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote: > >> Ok lets have a proximity off ! > >> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is > creating > >> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would > choose > >> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could > >> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I > >> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ > speakers) > >> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't if > >> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. I > >> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was > better > >> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back > >> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to > those > >> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) - > >> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity > illusions > >> ? > >> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > > > > if the wfs you have available allows it, bend it into a circle and use > > the sound scape renderer to get an a/b comparison of HOA vs. WFS. > > matthias and sascha have shown it to me on their 56ch circular test > > array at t-labs. i don't remember now if i did get to hear focused > > sources in HOA, but i believe SSR can do it. > > > > if you actually get the chance to try that on your own system, be sure > > to report your findings to the ssr authors - such feedback is rare, and > > i'm sure they'll appreciate it. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > J?rn Nettingsmeier > > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > > > Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) > > Tonmeister VDT > > > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 7 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:16:49 +0000 > > From: Augustine Leudar <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an > > impulse response > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > <CABx2juqPmUNAWDZVfePBtdhwEb-Y_+UST36= > [email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Ha I know Rodrigo well ! Will give it a watch > > > > On 12 December 2012 14:50, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay <[email protected] > >wrote: > > > >> Dear all > >> > >> Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to > use > >> and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). > This > >> time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with > some > >> of the tools for MaxMSP. > >> > >> Feel free to watch it here: > >> > >> https://vimeo.com/55440630 > >> > >> The paper and all the externals are still available here: > >> > >> http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ > >> > >> Let us know what you think! > >> > >> p > >> > >> ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 07580951119 > > > > augustine.leudar.com > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/3c1ba884/attachment.html > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 15:20:34 +0000 > > From: Augustine Leudar <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Proximity illusions - WFS vs HOA > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > <CABx2juor6dropnBxoe-NUrKUmOigacYjkT3hWi4bm= > [email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Yes I'll try that . SSR can do focused sources - I actually use that > > program on my system already - I only have a 32 channel system but Ill > give > > it a go. I will also test it out with own Peter's ambisonic plugin - > maybe > > next month sometime - Im almost excited ! > > > > On 12 December 2012 15:13, J?rn Nettingsmeier > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> On 12/12/2012 01:10 PM, Augustine Leudar wrote: > >> > >>> Ok lets have a proximity off ! > >>> One of the things that interests me most in the work Im doing is > creating > >>> proximity illusions. One member of this board asked my why I would > choose > >>> WFS over HOA for the horizontal plane and my answer was that WFS could > >>> create more effective proximity illusions. However it occurs to me I > >>> haven't really heard a very high order ambisonic system (say 200+ > >>> speakers) > >>> - I have heard ambisonics on the 48 speaker system at Sarc and didn't > if > >>> I'm honest hear much I would consider an effective proximity illusion. > I > >>> have also heard my own humble single line array WFS system which was > >>> better > >>> but still not totally satisfactory- but others have bought reports back > >>> from Ircam of "voices right in front of them" . So my question is to > >>> those > >>> that have heard both WFS and HOA systems (not theory - actually heard) > - > >>> which in your ear was able to create the most effective proximity > >>> illusions > >>> ? > >>> Also has anyone heard the haunted mansion WFS system at Disney ? > >>> > >> > >> if the wfs you have available allows it, bend it into a circle and use > the > >> sound scape renderer to get an a/b comparison of HOA vs. WFS. matthias > and > >> sascha have shown it to me on their 56ch circular test array at t-labs. > i > >> don't remember now if i did get to hear focused sources in HOA, but i > >> believe SSR can do it. > >> > >> if you actually get the chance to try that on your own system, be sure > to > >> report your findings to the ssr authors - such feedback is rare, and i'm > >> sure they'll appreciate it. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> J?rn Nettingsmeier > >> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > >> > >> Meister f?r Veranstaltungstechnik (B?hne/Studio) > >> Tonmeister VDT > >> > >> http://stackingdwarves.net > >> > >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/**mailman/listinfo/sursound< > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > 07580951119 > > > > augustine.leudar.com > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/a64e6209/attachment.html > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 10:42:53 -0600 > > From: Anthony Palomba <[email protected]> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] a quick tutorial video on how to create an > > impulse response > > To: Surround Sound discussion group <[email protected]> > > Message-ID: > > <CAFZXy= > [email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > This is a great video! I am looking forward to seeing more, > > especially room correction. > > > > I would also love to see some videos on using these > > tools to create new timbres. For example live instruments > > convolved with interesting sounds. > > > > > > Thanks, > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Pierre Alexandre Tremblay < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Dear all > >> > >> Thanks to Rodrigo Constanzo we have the first video tutorial of how to > use > >> and abuse the fruit of the HIRT (the HISS Impulse Response Toolbox). > This > >> time round, it is the basic use of capturing an impulse response with > some > >> of the tools for MaxMSP. > >> > >> Feel free to watch it here: > >> > >> https://vimeo.com/55440630 > >> > >> The paper and all the externals are still available here: > >> > >> http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/14897/ > >> > >> Let us know what you think! > >> > >> p > >> > >> ps for those who prefer youtube, it will soon be up there too! > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Sursound mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > >> > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20121212/dd630f95/attachment.html > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sursound mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > > > End of Sursound Digest, Vol 53, Issue 7 > > *************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > Sursound mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > -- 07580951119 augustine.leudar.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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