Answering my own question... the latest version of "Encoder Input Format for MPEG-H..." says N3D/ACN, as Richard Furse said. The earlier version of that document (1/2013) said N3D/SID, which is what I recalled reading.
http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg-h/3d-audio/encoder-input-format-mpeg-h-3d-audio (1/2013) Table 3 – Ordering of HOA components shows SID. appears to be superseded by http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg-h/3d-audio/n15268-encoder-input-format-mpeg-h-3d-audio (2/2015) End of Section 4.2 says ACN. Aaron On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 10:51 AM, Aaron Heller <hel...@ai.sri.com> wrote: > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 10:47 AM, Aaron Heller <hel...@ai.sri.com> wrote: >> >> ISO/IEC 14496-11 "Information technology — Coding of audio-visual objects —Part 11: Scene description and application engine" (second edition, dated 11/2013; see Table 9 in page 36) >> >> and >> >> ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29/WG11 MPEG2015//N15268 "Encoder Input Format for MPEG-H 3D Audio" (w15286, dated 2/2015; see Section 4.1), >> >> show HOA components in Daniel's SID order. (0,0; 1,1; 1,-1; 2,2; 2,-2, 2,1, 2,-1, 2,0; ...) > > > Should be... > > (0,0; 1,1; 1,-1; 1,0; 2,2; 2,-2; 2,1; 2,-1; 2,0; ...) > > >> >> >> I'll admit I don't follow MPEG activities closely. Have those been superseded? >> >> Best... >> >> Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com) >> Menlo Park, CA US >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 5:20 AM, Richard Furse <rich...@muse440.com> wrote: >> > >> > N3D/ACN >> > >> > http://mpeg.chiariglione.org/standards/mpeg-h/3d-audio/dis-mpeg-h-3d-audio >> > >> > Best wishes, >> > >> > --Richard >> > >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of >> > > Sönke Pelzer >> > > Sent: 24 March 2016 11:55 >> > > To: Surround Sound discussion group >> > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Furse-Malham to ACN conversion >> > > >> > > Hi Aaron, >> > > >> > > I looked up some recent MPEG-H papers, but couldn't find information about >> > > their HOA channel ordering and normalization scheme. >> > > Could you please point me to these? >> > > >> > > Thank you, >> > > Sönke >> > > >> > > >> > > 2016-03-24 7:25 GMT+01:00 Aaron Heller <hel...@ai.sri.com>: >> > > >> > > > Martin, >> > > > >> > > > Note that while AmbDec can accommodate FuMa normalization on input, it >> > > > still makes the connections to jack in ACN order so the inputs will often >> > > > appear in Jack in ACN order (and never in FuMa order). I say "often" >> > > > because the Jack API does not have any notion of the 'order' of an >> > > > application's ports. To make matters worse, some jack control clients, >> > > > like qjackctl, sort the ports by name, so they appear in the GUI in FuMa >> > > > order, but if you simply do a 'bulk connect' you'll find the individual >> > > > connections were made in ACN order. You really have to check the port >> > > > names carefully when connecting. >> > > > >> > > > The ADT can generate decoders in Faust with any combination of the the >> > > > channel order and normalization conventions that I'm aware of (FuMa, >> > > ACN, >> > > > MPEG-H, ...). Those can be completed to VST and used in Reaper. >> > > > >> > > > There are also 3rd-order FuMa and 5th-order panners for Ambix/ACN (the >> > > > latter thanks to Florian Grond). They are in the faust directory, >> > > > called ambi_panner_fms.dsp and ambi_panner_5_ACN.dsp. They have a >> > > built >> > > > in pink noise source with is useful for testing. >> > > > >> > > > It can also generate adapter matrices to convert signals between any of the >> > > > order and normalization conventions. An example of an Ambix to FuMa >> > > > converter is in ambix2fuma.dsp . >> > > > >> > > > Also.... feel free to send me the ADT setup you're using, if you'd like me >> > > > to check it. >> > > > >> > > > Aaron >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Dave Malham >> > > <dave.mal...@york.ac.uk> >> > > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Hi Martin (and Eric!), >> > > > > One very simple thing I would do, before doing anything else, with >> > > > any >> > > > > system that's playing, as we say, silly bu..ers, is just to play a well >> > > > > localisable sound out of each speaker (on its own) in turn and check that >> > > > > (a) it's coming out of the speaker it should (all connections are >> > > > correct) >> > > > > and that it sounds like it's coming from the direction you think it >> > > > should >> > > > > (acoustics not too disruptive). If you really want to be picky, stick a >> > > > > soundfield type mic at the nominal centre point and check correct B >> > > > format >> > > > > signals are produced for each speaker location at the same time. Only >> > > > then >> > > > > start worrying about decoders, plugin connections and the rest. I once >> > > > > worked out that in a simple 1st order system driving a cube of speakers, >> > > > > there are 16 million ways of it going wrong, without counting individual >> > > > > component failures in amps, etc. Of course, lots of these ways of going >> > > > > wrong are self cancelling (*both* ends of speaker cable can be >> > > connected >> > > > > wrongly, cancelling out the polarity inversion, for instance) which is a >> > > > > darn good job otherwise our job would be near impossible. So, checking >> > > > the >> > > > > simple things first is a good way to avoid delving around the complex.. >> > > > > >> > > > > Good luck >> > > > > Dave >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > On 23 March 2016 at 18:13, Eric Benjamin <eb...@pacbell.net> wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > > "In both cases the sound was coming from seemingly random places, >> > > and a >> > > > > > number of positions went practically silent." >> > > > > > What is needed, not just for you, but for everyone, is a comprehensive >> > > > > set >> > > > > > of test files. It may be that your loudspeakers aren't where the system >> > > > > > thinks they are (wrong speaker assignments), or it may be that that the >> > > > > > decoder is doing the wrong thing. I have more extensive versions of >> > > > test >> > > > > > files, including "with height" like the eight directions files on >> > > > > > Ambisonia., featuring the voice of the lovely Haley Jo. I could upload >> > > > > > those if anyone would like them. >> > > > > > You can then use metering to determine if the specific sounds light up >> > > > > the >> > > > > > speaker(s) that they should. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier< >> > > > > > netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote: On 03/22/2016 07:49 PM, >> > > Martin >> > > > > > Dupras wrote: >> > > > > > > Today I tried playback sources in third order Ambisonics on a 8+6+1 >> > > > > > > hemispheric speaker array using Reaper. It didn't quite work as >> > > > > > > intended so I'm trying to figure out where I've gone wrong. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I was using the Blue Ripple TOA-Core panner plugin to position the >> > > > > > > sound. I understand that Blue Rippler plugins use the Furse-Malham >> > > > > > > convention. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The only decoders that I could find to decode to my specific array >> > > > > > > (using coefficients that I calculated using the Ambisonics Decoder >> > > > > > > Toolkit) were the Ambix Plug-ins and AmbDec. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I tried Ambix first, which I understand uses the ACN ordering >> > > > > > > convention. I tried re-ordering the channels based on information >> > > > that >> > > > > > > I found here: >> > > > > > >> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonic_data_exchange_formats#ACN. >> > > > > > > But that didn't really work. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I then tried to run 16 outputs out of Reaper into Jack, and from Jack >> > > > > > > into AmbDec, again using my ADT-calculated coefficients. I >> > > understand >> > > > > > > that AmbDec uses the Furse-Malham convention, so I would have >> > > thought >> > > > > > > it was compatible with the output of the Blue Rippler plugins. But >> > > > > > > again, that didn't really work well at all. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > In both cases the sound was coming from seemingly random places, >> > > and >> > > > a >> > > > > > > number of positions went practically silent. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > To debug erratic panning behaviour, start with first order, verify, and >> > > > > > work your way up from there. To make sure the error is not in your >> > > > > > calculated coefficients, try to use a known-good decoding matrix that >> > > > > > approximates what you have, before feeding in your optimized one. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > With Ambdec, weird things can happen if you connect several ins at the >> > > > > > same time using some graphical client, because the order shown in for >> > > > > > example qjackctl is lexical, whereas the internal order is different. >> > > > So >> > > > > > you will end up with garbled connections. You can feed an ACN signal >> > > > > > into ambdec succesfully if you choose SN3D input scaling _and_ >> > > manually >> > > > > > connect the inputs correctly. >> > > > > > This wikipedia article >> > > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambisonic_data_exchange_formats >> > > > > > has some information on that, and other pitfalls when interfacing >> > > > > > different formats. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > All best, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Jörn >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > -- >> > > > > > Jörn Nettingsmeier >> > > > > > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) >> > > > > > Tonmeister VDT >> > > > > > >> > > > > > http://stackingdwarves.net >> > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > > Sursound mailing list >> > > > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu >> > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe >> > > > here, >> > > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > > > > URL: < >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2016032 >> > > 3/e78a01ce/attachment.html >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > > Sursound mailing list >> > > > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu >> > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe >> > > > here, >> > > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > -- >> > > > > >> > > > > As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. >> > > > > >> > > > > These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University >> > > > > >> > > > > Dave Malham >> > > > > Honorary Fellow, Department of Music >> > > > > The University of York >> > > > > York YO10 5DD >> > > > > UK >> > > > > >> > > > > 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > > > URL: < >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2016032 >> > > 3/5c9221ca/attachment.html >> > > > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > > Sursound mailing list >> > > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu >> > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, >> > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> > > > > >> > > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > > URL: < >> > > > >> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/2016032 >> > > 3/3202fffd/attachment.html >> > > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > Sursound mailing list >> > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu >> > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, >> > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > >> > > Dipl.-Ing. Sönke Pelzer >> > > >> > > Institut für Technische Akustik (ITA) >> > > RWTH Aachen >> > > Kopernikusstraße 5 >> > > 52074 Aachen >> > > >> > > Phone +49 (0) 241 80 97924 >> > > Fax +49 (0) 241 80 92214 >> > > Mail soenke.pel...@akustik.rwth-aachen.de >> > > Web http://www.akustik.rwth-aachen.de >> > > -------------- next part -------------- >> > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> > > URL: >> > > < https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/201603 >> > > 24/5fabae99/attachment.html> >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > Sursound mailing list >> > > Sursound@music.vt.edu >> > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, >> > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Sursound mailing list >> > Sursound@music.vt.edu >> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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