" My primary interest is in soundfield re-construction for listeners in a sweet spot. i.e. there is one central listening position, like formats such as stereo and 5.1 require. For this application is one format better than the others? Right now, I am working with a system that has up to 20 individually routable loudspeakers in a hemispherical array. The positioning of the speakers is flexible."
I think then a combination of Ambisonics and VBAP would suit you well. On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 at 23:56, Michael Bevers <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi all, > > > > Thanks for the replies! I’ve enjoyed reading through them and investigating > the different papers/leads people have mentioned. > > > > > All different tools for different jobs. > > > > My primary interest is in soundfield re-construction for listeners in a > sweet spot. i.e. there is one central listening position, like formats such > as stereo and 5.1 require. For this application is one format better than > the others? Right now, I am working with a system that has up to 20 > individually routable loudspeakers in a hemispherical array. The > positioning of the speakers is flexible. > > > > > Ps if I remember rightly Peter Stitt may have done some studies > comparing > > > vbap and ambisonics in an octoganal array at sarc you could check him > out. > > > > I sent Peter an email, but have not heard back from him. I also could not > find any documentation on this particular study. > > > > > Details on the piece here: > > https://electrocd.com/en/oeuvre/41658/Pierre_Alexandre_Tremblay/Bucolic_Broken > > > https://electrocd.com/en/oeuvre/41658/Pierre_Alexandre_Tremblay/Bucolic_Broken > > > > > > Very interesting composition! I hope I can hear it one day in the intended > listening environment. > > > > > I would say that HOA start to be usable for focused point source around > the 5th order, and gets better higher up with > the problems of then having > the speaker setup to fill it > > > > This is also very interesting! Can’t Ambisonics be decoded to almost any > loudspeaker array? Did you find that adding more speakers to an Ambisonics > system helped as much as increasing the Ambisonic order? How did you encode > and decode to 5thorder Ambisonics? Did you compare to a comparable > channel-based array? > > > > > http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/whp-pdf-files/WHP254.pdf > > > > Great paper; thanks for pointing me towards it. In this paper they compared > an ITU 5.0 surround array to different Ambisonic arrays (hexagon and > octagon). Is there a study that compares how well height is conveyed > between Ambisonic and channel-based systems? This study only looked at > sound in the horizontal plane. > > > Another question that came up reading these replies: what is the ideal > Ambisonics playback system? > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 4:42 PM Augustine Leudar < > [email protected]> > wrote: > > > Oh I forgot - if you dont want to buy max PD is another option > > which is free > > > > On Mon, 29 Apr 2019 at 22:17, Ralph Glasgal <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > You can implement the RACE equations using Max. It was easily > configured > > > by > > > Robert LiKamWa, Arizona State University, [email protected] > > > > > > You can do what you want with four speakers. You can have a full > circle > > of > > > direct sound in the horizontal plane using Max. You just need one > front > > > 2.0 > > > pair that has good values of frontal LD and TD uncontaminated by rear > > > direct > > > sound (or ceiling stuff) and one rear 2.0 pair that also has good > values > > of > > > LD and TD and is uncontaminated by frontal direct sound or ceiling > stuff. > > > There are several such 4.0 DTS encoded sample tracks at > > > www.ambiophonics.org. You can also derive such 4.0 tracks from B > format > > > recordings but get rid of the Z component. You can use an Ambiophone > for > > > free to make recordings if you like. RACE is also free to use. > > > > > > All this stuff is mostly free or very low cost compared to Max. You > can > > > use > > > JRiver and other low cost DAWs. Doing with four speakers what you are > > > trying to do with eight is also a saving. > > > > > > Ralph Glasgal > > > BEP, MSEE, AES, IEEE > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Sursound [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Phi > > Shu > > > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2019 11:10 AM > > > To: Surround Sound discussion group > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Study Comparing Ambisonic and Channel Based > > Systems > > > > > > > You should consider Ambiophonics. > > > > > > > > > well, not sure it would integrate with my workflow, primarily using > > Nuendo > > > and Max right now. > > > > > > With four speakers and 4.0 media such as > > > > Dolby Atmos or Auro3D or B format, you can have a full circle of > direct > > > > sound in the horizontal plane. > > > > > > > > > > Have zero interest in Dolby stuff (and currently using B-Format, 8 > > > speakers, double diamond), I'm talking about rigs like dude above > > > discusses, he mentions BEAST, there's ZKM, SARC, Notam, bunch of other > > > institutional spaces, as well as the 4D and Envelop dudes, these are > all > > > propriety arrays, so what I'm talking about is some dude, working at > > home, > > > with 8 speakers, thinking about how a work might translate to one of > > those > > > rigs, what's the best strategy? in terms of getting some sense of > height? > > > > > > > > > > You can have several listeners and you don't > > > > need head tracking. > > > > > > > > > Head tracking is not really I concern at this point. > > > > > > > > > > Height however does require more speakers but height > > > > hall ambience is easy to obtain. > > > > > > > > > OK, but again, the question, with an 8 speaker limitation, is a cube > > using > > > B-Format the best approach to get height, with phantom images operating > > as > > > "virtual" speakers? Or is using HOA mixing to headphones better? Or, > just > > > stick one speaker overhead and use VBAP instead? Surely someone on here > > has > > > a clue about the best approach to this? > > > > > > > > > > Take a look at the miniDSP, Amtra, > > > > Soundpimp, NeutronMP, AmbiophonicsDSP, etc. Links, AES papers and > > > > tutorials > > > > at www.ambiophonics.org > > > > > > > > > I will look, thanks, but i ain't spending money on stuff. > > > > > > There are also sample demo 4.0 tracks available > > > > made with an Ambiophone, a 4.0 mic array originally conceived by > seeing > > > > what > > > > happens when you combine two Soundfield mics and a shaped structure > > > between > > > > them. See the papers by Robin Miller under the tab Recording > Engineers > > > > Corner. See also the hall IRs furnished by Angelo Farina if you want > > > > ambient height for music. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the additional info will check it out. > > > > > > Cheers!! : ) > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Sursound [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > > > > Augustine > > > > Leudar > > > > Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 4:05 AM > > > > To: Surround Sound discussion group > > > > Subject: Re: [Sursound] Study Comparing Ambisonic and Channel Based > > > Systems > > > > > > > > I havent done a study on it but ive done hundreds of compositions and > > > > installations and the differences are pretty obvious. Ambisonics is > > > pretty > > > > good at filling a hole in the panning but vbap can be better under > some > > > > circumstances. Ambisonics is pretty much useles if you want to say, > > makes > > > > sounds fly round a labarinth of corridors covering a festival area in > > > which > > > > case dbap is better suited. Wfs handles focussed sources better. 5-,1 > > > > strictty speaking is a speaker array so you could have ambisonics > over > > a > > > > 5.1 speaker setup. Ive toyed with the idea of doing a study > comparing > > > how > > > > well tecniques can get sounds to sppear close to a lustener between > > wfs > > > , > > > > ambisonics and dbap but its pointless reslly as its obvious to anyone > > who > > > > uses these things what the results would be.All different tools for > > > > different jobs. > > > > > > > > On Friday, 19 April 2019, Michael Bevers <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > I'm curious if anyone knows of, or has conducted, any studies > > comparing > > > > an > > > > > Ambisonic system to a channel-based system? For example, a > comparison > > > of > > > > an > > > > > Auro 3-D system with an Ambisonic system. Or even just a 5.1 > surround > > > > > system with an Ambisonic system. > > > > > > > > > > I haven't found any studies myself directly comparing the two, even > > > > through > > > > > AES. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help, > > > > > Michael > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > > URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/ > > > > > attachments/20190419/8966cd12/attachment.html> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Sursound mailing list > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > > here, > > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dr. Augustine Leudar > > > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD > > > > Company Number : NI635217 > > > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, > > > > Belfast BT88LL > > > > www.magikdoor.net > > > > +44(0)7555784775 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > > URL: > > > > < > > > > > > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190420/cc6 > > > > 3b0e9/attachment.html > > > > > > > < > > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190420/cc6 > > > 3b0e9/attachment.html > > > < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190420/cc63b0e9/attachment.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sursound mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, > > > > edit > > > > account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Sursound mailing list > > > > [email protected] > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > > here, > > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > > URL: > > > < > > > > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190429/0d1 > > > dce55/attachment.html > > > < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190429/0d1dce55/attachment.html > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, > > > edit > > > account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > [email protected] > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe > here, > > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dr. Augustine Leudar > > Artistic Director Magik Door LTD > > Company Number : NI635217 > > Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, > > Belfast BT88LL > > www.magikdoor.net > > +44(0)7555784775 > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190429/96b755f8/attachment.html > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Sursound mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > > > > > -- > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20190429/f38ad0a8/attachment.html > > > _______________________________________________ > Sursound mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- Dr. Augustine Leudar Artistic Director Magik Door LTD Company Number : NI635217 Registered 63 Ballycoan rd, Belfast BT88LL www.magikdoor.net +44(0)7555784775 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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