=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
This message was forwarded through the Red Rock Eater News Service (RRE).
Send any replies to the original author, listed in the From: field below.
You are welcome to send the message along to others but please do not use
the "redirect" command. For information on RRE, including instructions
for (un)subscribing, see http://dlis.gseis.ucla.edu/people/pagre/rre.html
or send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with Subject: info rre
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html]
Toshiba/Microsoft Saga
Geoffrey D. Bennett
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
12/Aug/1998
I hope that this web page will prove useful to those people who want
to purchase a laptop without Microsoft Windows. The short summary is:
It is near impossible to buy a laptop without Windows
The Microsoft Software License Agreement allows you to return the
software if you do not agree to its terms.
It is difficult, but not impossible to get Toshiba (at least in
Australia) to send you a cheque in return for the Windows License.
I purchased a Toshiba notebook on February 2nd this year from my local
Linux-friendly supplier (Nick Stock at Cybernet Systems). Being the
devoted Linux user I am, I didn't want to pay for a copy of Microsoft
Windows if I wasn't going to use it. Unfortunately, Nick informed me
that it was impossible to purchase a Toshiba (or practically any brand
of notebook) without Windows coming along for the ride.
When I received the computer, I noted that the ``End User License
Agreement for Microsoft Software'' stated that I did not have to
accept the agreeement, and if I didn't agree to its terms, I could
contact the manufacturer for instructions on returning the software
for a refund. That seemed like just what I wanted, so I contacted
Toshiba in Adelaide and spoke with Kon Karanastasis.
Kon had apparently never heard of anyone wanting to return just the
software for a refund, so it took a while to explain what I wanted.
"I want to give you back the Microsoft software and receive a cheque
in return", "We don't do that", "But the license agreement that Toshiba
supplied with my computer says you will". Kon asked that I send him a
letter explaining what I wanted, along with a copy of the invoice for
the notebook and he'd find out what could be done.
Here's the letter:
NetCraft Australia
PO Box 390 Blackwood 5051
Phone: 08 8370 3650
Fax: 08 8278 8325
2 February 1998
Mr. Kon Karanastasis
Toshiba
5 Hurtle Square
Adelaide SA 5000
Dear Kon,
With reference to my phone call to you today, I have purchased
a Toshiba Satellite Pro laptop computer which included a copy of
Microsoft Windows 95 pre-installed. The ``End-User License Agreement
For Microsoft Software'' included with the computer states in part:
If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer
and Microsoft are unwilling to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
to you. In such event, you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE
PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact PC Manufacturer for
instructions on return of the unused products(s) for a refund.
I do not agree to the terms of the End-User License Agreement
for the Windows 95 software, and would like to return the software
for a refund. Please supply me with instructions on how to return
the software.
As you requested, I have enclosed a copy of the invoice for the
Toshiba laptop computer.
Regards,
(signed)
Geoffrey D. Bennett
Computer Systems Manager
NetCraft Australia
Kon got back to me and the word from Sydney was that Toshiba would be
happy for me to return my notebook and receive a full refund, but they
were not willing to give me a refund on just the Microsoft Software.
I explained that this was unacceptable; the license agreement for the
Software specifically said that I could return just the Software. Too
bad apparently; Toshiba have a contractual agreement with Microsoft
where they can't unbundle the software from the hardware, therefore
they wouldn't give me a refund.
I obviously wasn't happy with this, so Kon said that the person to
talk to was Laurence White from Product Planning in Toshiba. I sent
him email explaining the situation:
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:25:06 +1030 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Return of unused software
Dear Laurence,
Kon Karanastasis from Toshiba in Adelaide said that I should
contact you regarding the return of the unused Microsoft software
that came with my Toshiba laptop.
On the 2nd of February this year, I purchased a Toshiba Satellite
Pro laptop computer which included a copy of Microsoft Windows
95 pre-installed. The ``End-User License Agreement For Microsoft
Software'' that was included with my computer states in part:
If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer
and Microsoft are unwilling to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT
to you. In such event, you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE
PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact PC Manufacturer for
instructions on return of the unused products(s) for a refund.
I did not agree to the terms of the End-User License Agreement
for the Microsoft software, so I refrained from using the
software, and I completely removed it without creating any
backup.
I would now like to return the unused software product for a
refund. Could you please supply me with instructions on how to
return the software and obtain a refund.
Regards,
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
Laurence told me essentially the same thing that Kon did. I can return
the notebook, but I can't return just the Software:
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 10:08:40
From: "laurence white" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Return of unused software
Hello Geoffrey,
I am the Toshiba Product Manager and am responsible for all
notebooks.
The EULA you have received is a generic Microsoft document
supplied by all manufacturers as proof of the purchase of your
operating system.
As you can see in the wording of the text you need to contact
a vendor for instructions and Toshiba is unwilling to refund
the cost of the operating system.
Toshiba is required by Microsoft contract to provide and
purchase a valid operating system. Toshiba cannot get a refund
from Microsoft.
I hope you can understand our position. Toshiba must pay
Microsoft at point of manufacture and cannot get a refund from
Microsoft, so we can't refund you.
If we gave you a refund on the operating system component then
Toshiba cannot claim this on Microsoft.
I hope this explains our position with Microsoft Software.
Regards
Laurie White
Toshiba Australia
(my original message was included here)
If at first you don't succeed... so I asked again, explaining why his
reasons for refusing a refund were not valid:
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:26:22 +1030 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (laurence white)
Subject: Re: Return of unused software
Hi Laurie,
Thank you for your reply to my message regarding the return
of unused Microsoft software. Although I understand Toshiba's
position, it is not acceptable for reasons I give below, and
therefore, I would like to request for the second time you
to send me instructions on how to return the unused Microsoft
software to Toshiba and obtain a refund for that software.
You wrote:
> Hello Geoffrey,
>
> I am the Toshiba Product Manager and am responsible for all
> notebooks.
>
> The EULA you have received is a generic Microsoft document
> supplied by all manufacturers as proof of the purchase of your
> operating system.
I'm not sure how this is relevant? The EULA certainly is my
proof of purchase, but it is a lot more than that. The EULA
states the terms under which the software is to be licensed
to me under. I have rejected those terms, and according to the
agreement I may not use or copy the software and I should return
it for a refund.
The EULA is the document that specifically says that PC
Manufacturer (Toshiba in this case) and Microsoft are unwilling
to license the software to me, and I should contact Toshiba for
instructions on returning the software for a refund.
> As you can see in the wording of the text you need to contact a
> vendor for instructions and Toshiba is unwilling to refund the
> cost of the operating system.
Toshiba might be unwilling this month to refund the cost of the
operating system to me, but the EULA which was sent to me last
month by Toshiba with the computer when I purchased it does not
include a provision for you to reject my claim for a refund.
If Toshiba were not willing to refund the cost of unwanted
software to me when I purchased the product, Toshiba should not
have supplied me with a license agreement that states that I can
return the software for a refund.
> Toshiba is required by Microsoft contract to provide and
> purchase a valid operating system. Toshiba cannot get a refund
> from Microsoft.
The agreement between Toshiba and Microsoft is irrelevant to me.
The agreement between myself, Toshiba, and Microsoft says that
I can return the product for a refund. Whether or not Toshiba
can then receive a refund from Microsoft is really none of my
business.
> I hope you can understand our position. Toshiba must pay
> Microsoft at point of manufacture and cannot get a refund from
> Microsoft, so we can't refund you.
>
> If we gave you a refund on the operating system component then
> Toshiba cannot claim this on Microsoft.
>
> I hope this explains our position with Microsoft Software.
I do understand your position, but if Toshiba enter into an
agreement with Microsoft where Toshiba is required to purchase
Microsoft software for each notebook, then Toshiba should be
willing to wear the cost of that software if I do not want to
purchase that software from you.
Surely the discounts obtained by purchasing Microsoft software
with every notebook manufactured far outweigh the cost associated
with me not wanting to purchase the Microsoft software from
Toshiba? If they don't, perhaps Toshiba should review their
agreement with Microsoft.
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Geoffrey.
(my original message was included here)
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
He obviously didn't like my arguments:
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 09:38:15
From: "laurence white" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re[2]: Return of unused software
Geoffrey,
Toshiba is happy for you to return the complete computer system
for a refund to the place of purchase. We are not willing to sell
just the computer system to you.
If you have any further questions regarding this matter you will
need to talk with our legal department.
Regards
Laurie White
(my first reply was included here)
I called the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission)
who said that selling one product bundled with another as Toshiba
are doing is an okay thing to do, and then I called Consumer Affairs
who suggested I see a lawyer. I ended up going to see someone from
the Legal Services Commission who said that I could take my case to
the small claims court and I'd probably win, but if I didn't then
I'd be up for their expenses (plane trip from Sydney plus hotel
accomodation). I definately didn't want to take that risk, so I
decided to give in.
By this time, the model of notebook I had purchased was discontinued
(it had been about two months since I purchased it) and the next
model up was $700 cheaper than what I had paid for mine. Since Toshiba
were offering me the chance to return the entire computer, this was
obviously a good deal. They were effectively offering me $700 and
a notebook upgrade :-). I didn't really want to pursue this option,
since I would still be paying for a copy of Microsoft Windows that I
didn't want (it's the principle of the thing!), but I didn't see any
other option.
So I contacted Nick, who was quite happy to take the computer
back from me provided that his supplier would take it back from
him. Unfortunately, his supplier didn't like this idea and were
quite ticked off that Toshiba would say to me that I could return
a pre-loved, two-month old, and discontinued computer at their
expense. They wanted to know who at Toshiba told me this.
I then get email (quite unexpectedly) from Kon Karanastasis, who
wrote:
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 13:46:11
From: "kon karanastasis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Return of Unused Software
Dear Geoffrey
In respect to your formal request for a refund for unused
software on your Toshiba Laptop Computer the matter is currently
being assessed by our General Affairs Division.
Before they reach a final decision they have asked me the
following questions in respect to your purchase ;
1. Mr Bennett states that he purchased the computer on 2nd
February 1998.
From whom did Mr Bennett purchase the computer?
2. Did he rely on a brochure in making his decision?
3. At the time of purchase did he notify the vendor that he
did not want the standard MS operating system?
4. Did Mr Bennett read the End User License Agreement prior
to turning on the Computer for the first time?
5. Mr Bennett states that he "refrained from using the
software, and .... completely removed it without
creating any backup". How was this accomplished?
When was the Operating System deleted?
6. Has the computer been used between the dates of
2nd February 1998 and 3rd March 1998? If in the
affirmative, utilising what operating system?
If you could please provide answers to these questions, I will
ensure a speedy resolution of this issue.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
Toshiba ISD
Email Add : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone : 08 8223 2878
Fax : 08 8232 5022
I thought that the above message was a bit strange, since I hadn't
talked to Kon for quite a while now, and I wasn't asking them consider
a refund for the unused software anymore. I wrote the following email
back:
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:42:33 +0930 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (kon karanastasis)
Subject: Re: Return of Unused Software
Dear Kon,
You wrote:
> Dear Geoffrey
>
> In respect to your formal request for a refund for unused
> software on your Toshiba Laptop Computer the matter is
> currently being assessed by our General Affairs Division.
I'm a bit confused here, because my refund for unused software
has been assessed and denied three times already, each time
with an offer for me to return the entire computer, and the last
time also telling me that I'd need to contact Toshiba's Legal
Department if I wanted to take the issue of returning just the
software any further. After the three refusals, I decided to
take up the multiple offers of returning the computer, so I
contacted my supplier to arrange doing so.
Are Toshiba now reconsidering the refund for the unused software?
If so, that is fine, but if it is refused (for the fourth time),
I will be again wanting to take you up on your offer for me to
return the entire computer.
> Before they reach a final decision they have asked me the
> following questions in respect to your purchase ;
>
> 1. Mr Bennett states that he purchased the computer on
> 2nd February 1998.
>
> From whom did Mr Bennett purchase the computer?
I purchased the computer from Nicholas Stock at Cybernet Systems
(017 864 264). I sent you a copy of the invoice on February 2nd.
> 2. Did he rely on a brochure in making his decision?
No, I didn't rely on a brochure in making my decision. I read
many brochures, viewed many web pages, and talked to many people
when deciding which notebook to purchase.
> 3. At the time of purchase did he notify the vendor that
> he did not want the standard MS operating system?
My vendor was aware before I purchased the computer that I did
not want the standard MS operating system. My vendor had already
informed me that it was not possible to have Windows removed from
the computer before purchasing it.
> 4. Did Mr Bennett read the End User License Agreement
> prior to turning on the Computer for the first time?
I did. The license agrement said that if I did not agree to
its terms, Toshiba and Microsoft were unwilling to license the
software to me, and I could return the software for a refund.
Therefore, I did not use the software, and I contacted Kon to
arrange a refund.
> 5. Mr Bennett states that he "refrained from using the
> software, and .... completely removed it without
> creating any backup". How was this accomplished?
> When was the Operating System deleted?
I removed the operating system by connecting the floppy disk
drive, inserting a Red Hat Linux boot floppy, turning on
the computer, deleting all partitions on the hard disk, and
installing Linux. I did this on the same day I received the
computer.
> 6. Has the computer been used between the dates of
> 2nd February 1998 and 3rd March 1998? If in the
> affirmative, utilising what operating system?
Yes, the computer has been used the entire time I have had it.
The operating system used has been the Red Hat Linux operating
system.
> If you could please provide answers to these questions, I will
> ensure a speedy resolution of this issue.
Thank you,
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
The next day I received email back from Kon:
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 13:14:32
From: "kon karanastasis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Return of Unused Software
Geoffrey
Toshiba's General Affairs Division have assessed your claim for a
refund of the unused Microsoft Software.
Toshiba is prepared to offer you $110.00 (AUS) as a refund for
not using the bundled software.
Please confirm your acceptance (or otherwise) of this offer and
we will implement the appropriate actions to settle this matter.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
(the message he replied to was included here)
Since this was exactly what I was wanting, I wrote back:
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:21:43 +0930 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (kon karanastasis)
Subject: Re: Return of Unused Software
> Geoffrey
>
> Toshiba's General Affairs Division have assessed your claim for
> a refund of the unused Microsoft Software.
>
> Toshiba is prepared to offer you $110.00 (AUS) as a refund for
> not using the bundled software.
>
> Please confirm your acceptance (or otherwise) of this offer and
> we will implement the appropriate actions to settle this matter.
Hi Kon,
That sounds good. Let me know what the next step is.
Regards,
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
Time passed, and I called Kon to find out what was happening to my
cheque. He explained that in big companies, weird things like giving
money to customers for return of Microsoft software can take a while
to happen. A little later I received email from him:
Date: Thu, 07 May 98 14:51:43 +1000
From: "KON KARANASTASIS"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Refund for Unused Software
Geoffrey
I've followed up the progress of your refund cheque.
I still can't give you a definite date, however, I think I've
managed to put some higher priority on your claim.
Hopefully it should all be resolved within a fortnight.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
And then the email I was waiting for:
Date: Thu, 21 May 98 10:46:44 +1000
From: "KON KARANASTASIS"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Refund Cheque
Hi Geoffrey
Your refund cheque has arrived in Adelaide.
If you would like to return all documentation/software relating
to MS Windows to our office at 5 Hurtle Square you can pick up
your cheque.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
I couldn't pick up the cheque immediately because I had just left
for Linux Expo, but when I got back I wasn't in any particular hurry
to get the cheque because it was the principle of the thing, not the
money. After some hassling from a couple of LinuxSA members at the
July meeting, I finally went to Toshiba on the 10th of August to pick
up my cheque.
Lo and behold, I now have a cheque for $110 from Toshiba in return for
an unused license for Microsoft Windows!
Many thanks to:
Paul Ashton (of Samba fame). Paul was the one who told me in
January that when I purchase a laptop I should read the Microsoft
Licence Agreement, and take note of the bit about a refund.
Kon Karanastasis at Toshiba for being patient with such a strange
request.
Nick Stock at Cybernet Systems for being an all-round good guy.
No thanks to:
Laurence White at Toshiba for three times denying my request
for Toshiba to honour the license agreement they included with my
computer.
If there's anyone else wanting to do a similar thing, I think that the
important things are:
Check the license agreement. Look for something like ``If you
do not agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer and Microsoft
are unwilling to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In such event,
you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you should promptly
contact PC Manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused
products(s) for a refund.''
As the first thing you do with the computer, boot from a floppy
and delete the Windows partition immediately. If you boot Windows even
once, you will probably be considered to have accepted the agreement.
Contact your manufacturer immediately, and say that you do not
agree to the terms of the EULA and would like instructions on return
of the unused Microsoft Software for a refund.
To unsubscribe from SURVPC send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
unsubscribe SURVPC in the body of the message.
Also, trim this footer from any quoted replies.
