Hi Mark and all: Guess I have to chime in here too.
- Agree that biodiesel and SVO are not mutually exclusive. We have built systems, made biodiesel and experimented with blends for three years now. SVO systems (electric) are still our preference, but we do make some biodiesel. This is because some of the oil we bring in is not, in our opinion, suitable for SVO. If it is greasy junk, make it into biodiesel. If it is good, liquid "6.25" (titration) Canola oil that flows well and smells good, use it for SVO. - Your friend that had the failure on a coolant-based SVO system would have been happy with our kit, I think. It is electric-only, inexpensive, and easy to install. - 6 port motorized valves are reliable. 3 port solenoid valves are not, in my experience. - 10 micron to 20 micron filters work well with decent oil. Mounted downstream of a VEG-Therm or other heater, they will dewax nicely in colder weather if you idle a minute or so after startup, BEFORE driving.. This also gets things flowing so the injection pump is not having to work hard. - Lift pumps (e.g. on VW's, as auxiliary pumps) are not needed on our kit - we found a very effective and simple way to allow adequate flow of SVO, even when it is thicker and and on steep hill climbs. - Older school buses get sold off for a reason. They are getting tired. Also consider that they are used HARD, for a few hours each day, and not much highway use. 50 kids, maybe 5000 lbs., a good load. Lots of starts and stops at full or near full engine load. Then, they get sold off to someone who puts in 1500 lbs of mattresses, food and quitars, and heads off on a cross country cruise, trying to take it easy and save fuel. Maybe this is not a good recipe. - Injection pumps fail on all sorts diesels (running diesel fuel) all the time, that is why you see so many injection shops. - Our kits are now quite a mature kit, we have sold many in many countries. Very few installation "help" requests. No reported failures attributable to the system. They work well. I really don't know what I'd change on a kit, certainly we can't optimize them any further or add doo-dads, and still sell them at the price we do. And the bells and whistles just are not needed. - Filtering oil is easier, faster, and yes, safer (in production), than making it into biodiesel. - SVO /WVO has to be GOOD OIL, not junk. - Two tanks, heating, and thorough purging are NECESSARY. - Engines that are not "working" will have problems. Cruising along with a light load (or running a generator "light") is not good. - Direct injection engines on SVO need extra attention. Two tank, heating, and a blend, IMHO. If you insist on doing a TDI, use GOOD vegoil, CHANGE your lube oil by the book or more often, USE a blend of some sort (per ACREVO...here is a thought...20% biodiesel instead of the 9% ethanol in ACREVO). If you did that, and used biodiesel just as start stop fuel...how good does the homebrew biodiesel really need to be? Anyway, for many SVO is not the "fuel of the future", it is one that anyone can use today. It was funny to read that, it sort of makes SVO sound like a fuel cell....or biodiesel, a few years ago. I use it every day, one toggle switch is all I have to operate. As simple as turning the radio on and off. No worries about coolant loss. Frequent "runs through the gears" to keep the injectors cleaned out. No lack of power. Regards, Edward Beggs B.E.S, M.Sc. per Neoteric Biofuels Inc. http://www.biofuels.ca On Monday, January 6, 2003, at 07:07 PM, girl mark wrote: > Hi > gotta chime in here, though I don't want to revive the stupid > 'biodiesel > VERSUS SVO debate, as both have their place- > While I agree that SVO is the wave of the future, it's important to > point > out that it's very experimental- and a lot of the experimenting takes > place > via your vehicle not running. People need to be prepared for this if > going > that route. I just want to counter any starry-eyed-ness that will make > someone think that it's a perfect mature technology- it's getting > there but > it involves problems in the real-world that I think few people fully > report > and fully attribute to experimental SVO conversions, thanks to the very > human nature of denial about mistakes. Obviously it can be made > bulletproof > and can be completely problem-free, but in my experience talking to > locals > most of them have had to deal with some kind of problems sooner or > later. > > I personally know many SVO'ers, running everything from homemade DIY > stuff > cobbled together from the corner hardware store to kits (soon to see a > few > Elsbetts around here, have seen the kit but not installed yet). > Most of these folks have gone through a lot of tinkering- which is a > nice > term for being broken down on the side of the road figuring out their > fuel > system. > > A few examples: > One of my worst stories was a friend who got her engine destroyed by a > poor > install (the monkey 'professional' installer around here made a serious > mistake that resulted in a 'minor' sounding thing- a coolant leak- and > that > coolant leak immediately resulted in a blown head gasket and that head > gasket led to an instant overheating that resulted in some cracked or > warped engine bottom-end components(sorry can't remember which > exactly, but > it was a catastrophic failure definitely requiring a new engine, not > just a > new head). Anyway this gal's vehicle, conversion, kit, towing bills, > and > new engine made her car a $3,000 1978 Rabbit (and she had to buy a gas > car > to drive while getting a new engine figured out). OUCHHHHH!!!!!!! > Amazingly > she;s still enthusiastic about svo, and teaches classes about it. Part > of > that is that she doesn't have a choice- she's chem-sensitive and > couldn't > handle making biodiesel (nor should be driving around in petrodiesel > most > likely). She';s also really, really good about presenting the > 'realistic' > view in her seminars as a result of her experiences, making sure > people are > aware of it as a potentially experimental technology. > > other problems I've run across recently are things people will > probably not > report widely. My friend Amanda just seized her injection pump- in an > SVO > schoolbus. That won't be a cheap repair. Is it attributable to a poor > DIY > conversion? (ie, stressing pump components by not running fuel hot > enough, > or putting too much of a strain on the pump pulling thick oil through > it > with no additional lift pump, or not flushing out enough SVO and it > getting > gummed up cold in the pump, or not filtering properly, or some other > problem attributable to experimenting with fuels) The answer isn't > obvious, > and there's no way to tell. It's an old vehicle. is it likely to get > reported as an SVO-caused problem? Probably not. Someone who'se gone > through as much trouble figuring out a DIY conversion already (I think > she > built the from the fryertothefueltank 'system' (yech!) but I'm not 100% > sure) will probably take a while to admit that they might have done > something dumb. (to the tune of , what, several hundred to a thousand > and a > half dollars?). > Other local schoolbus-driving friends of mine are currently broken > down at > the Detroit Diesel place in LA with some kind of serious injector > problems > right now in the middle of a road trip. they'd also gone through some > serious issues in the process of doing their bus conversion, and > they're > pretty smart and competent people (see the amusing and useful diary of > their conversion trials and tribulations at : > http://www.havocsound.cjb.net/ > under the 'vegbus' thingie on the right of the homepage) > Is it possible that their issues have to do with their vegoil > experiment? > who knows. It could be bus age, etc, or it could be vegoil (or their > issues > running a bunch of coolant through their engine a few months ago in the > process of getting their conversion right!). It probably won't get > reported > as an svo failure. > > I worked on another SVO vehicle with clogged injectors, they had a > number > of problems with that car due to the conversion (things like the 3-port > valve breaking)and the pro mechanics around the corner hated it. these > folks bought the car already converted from another SVO'er, and they > were > unfortunately not mechanically inclined. Bad situation. The fouled > injectors were probably caused by problems specific to the SVO > conversion. > > Our friend Gray Shaw is going through some weird power-loss/hard start > stuff that he thought has to do with injector clogging in his rather > new > SVO work truck. In his case he wasn't clear on all of the reasons for > 'flushing' the system- and stopped on an SVO/diesel mix quite a lot > before > figuring out it wasn't a good idea (at least last I talked to him a > couple > of months ago that was his theory about this powerloss, there might be > other stuff going on that;s unrelated, are you out there on this list > still, Gray?). As I mentioned this is a guy who needs to rely on his > truck > as part of his job. > > My housemate just went through some good amount of rather routine > hassle > doing a conversion. It's actually a VERY impressive system and I'm glad > Aaron was the test case going through it and not me. It's on the > conservative and redundant side, and will be a good one for others > with > the same truck (like me?). But boy, in all my experimenting with > homebrew > biodiesel I've never had to 'not drive' my car as a result of any > biodiesel-making failures, nor do what Aaron's dealt with- having to > borrow > vehicles to get his baby to the doctor for instance, when their truck > wasn't running cause he was still figuring out what was routed > incorrectly. > Again, in this case it wasn't an SVO failure at all but simply the > process > of figuring out how this new design works. But a lot of people go > through > that kind of thing routinely as part of the process- it's important to > give > some acknowledgement to the problems that come about doing something > this > experimental. > > Anyway Craig Reece says that I'll 'come over to the Dark Side and > become an > SVO'er yet' ARRRGGGGHHH! It's Darth Craig corrupting biodieselers! :) > and > Dana Linscott says I've 'got a foot in both the SVO and the biodiesel > worlds,' and I'll probably build a system as soon as someone donates my > projects a diesel schoolbus (arright, maybe as soon as someone points > me to > a real cheap one), and I gotta stress that I;m not against SVO in > general. > I do think along with Keith and all that it's the wave of the future- > but > it's probably a good idea to be honest about the fact that problems > that > come with experimenting aren't a small thing, and that they're more > common > than people necessarily report... > > Mark > > > > > > > > > >> SVO/WVO >> Good multifuel engines exist that will run SVO/WVO. Elsbett have to >> be >> the world leaders with these technologies. They no longer offer their >> multifuel engine but can convert other engines. Mainly IDI engines >> although some TDI engines are converted. DIY kits are available for >> IDI >> engines, DIY IDI kits will be available soon (for give the acronyms) >> Possible problems reported: >> With a good multifuel equipped engine only cold weather fuel gelling >> addition of diesel fuel up to 20% recommended (maybe bio-d) >> >> Fuel Blends / Microemulsions >> Less research. Will run in any diesel engine. Here I'm talking SVO >> with >> (preferably bio) alcohols and other (pref bio) additives. I do have >> some more info on these that I plan to add to the report at >> www.vegburner.co.uk/report. More info in the public domain (on the >> web?) would be good. >> Possible reported problems: >> Alcohol in fuel blends can damage unsuitable plastics/resins in fuel >> system. >> Cold weather fuel gelling. Additives can be utilised to reduce the gel >> point. Fuel heating devices can be utilised. >> >> So as has been said before (although blends/microemulsions are not >> often >> discussed) each fuel has it's own pros and cons and in turn each could >> be suited to an individual application. >> >> Blends/microemulsions could well be a potential solution or part >> solution in some situations. More information would help to asses >> potential. A recent IP failure due to a sensor being damaged most >> probably by the alcohol within the fuel is one of the few 'real life' >> 'bad' experiences I am aware of, although reported usage is low (if >> diesel/SVO blends are discounted). A (very)good fuel producer would >> identify engines, in which, the fuel was unsuitable, or make sure the >> user was aware of this potential problem. The same as should be done >> by >> biodiesel producers/distributors, although despite biodiesels >> widespread >> use I am unaware of any specific details of lists of rubber parts >> which >> need replacing on -this- model of vehicle, due to growing usage >> vehicle >> manufacturers are specifying accepted biodiesel/diesel blend levels >> with >> new European vehicles >> >> The possible effect on consumers of these 'problems' with >> biodiesel/blends always makes me think of the introduction of unleaded >> petrol (gasoline) in the UK. Fuel stations had lists of common >> vehicles >> and their suitability. Mechanics often modified (and still do) >> engines >> to allow the use, if I remember correctly anything from a change of >> spark plugs to a new head. Consumers were often ready to pay out for >> this work to allow their vehicle to be run on this slightly cheaper, >> more environmentally friendly fuel. Sometimes it was no doubt >> economics >> other cases environmental concerns. If the taxation of biofuels can >> be >> made to reflect their large benefits, I think consumer acceptance >> would >> be widespread (even if there were additional costs) without fuel price >> benefits I think acceptance would also be quite impressive. >> >> SVO/WVO (in multifuel equipped engines) is no doubt the way to go (I >> feel a song coming along there) where possible. Elsbetts' (and >> others) >> work needs encouraging, studying and building upon. Short to mid term >> biodiesel and, potentially, blends are usable in existing engines with >> little or no modification and will (are) play(ing) a very big part in >> biofuel development. >> >> Darren Hill >> www.vegburner.co.uk >> >> >> >> Yahoo! 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