Hello , dear and respected KEITH and TODD
Well
Thank you all, bringing the composting or biodigestion problems of
cock tails or purified glycerin.I am pesonaly against treating glycerin as
waste, but need to be treated as raw material for making soap, making
polishing adhesivos pastes with glycerinated starch, cosmetics formulations
after simple seperations outlined by Keith . These are possible to arrive
at local market before thinking of disposal as waste . Our biofuel group need
to also have think of bioproducts as future vision. Thus this liquid waste
can be the raw material for the production of hih value biosurfactant and
high valued yeast products .These products can be obtained and also has
potencial in near feature. These several products approach the fuel, feed,
food fine chemical can make the the integrated process more economical as
well as ecological.One man waste can , other man rich products and hence good
smallscale indusrial ecology.The Brasilian ethanol survive
making not only fuel , but also, sugar the animal feed from suagre can
bagasse, fertilizer from stillage , and fuel from waste bagasse even in
micro distillary and now also attempting make fish from waste water, all small
scale INDUSTRIAL ECOLOGY DEVELOPMENTS . Thus the fuel making can also be
well linked to food , feed , fertilizer too.This interrelated ,cyclic
ecolgical system approach, are very key for the sucess of any sustainable
biofuel process developments.
We can also imagine simillar approach and process can be made possible
with vegetable oil refinary too , making biodeisel as byproducts from major
soya and other oil crop products.Here the design problems of solid state
fermentations of aerobic and anerobics biodigestion can be the key system . I
personelly feel after Keith interesting reply here, that the biodigester can be
made to make all the wastes into fuel ,or feed or fertelizer.It is like the
flexible car , many input can be put together to turn into desired products.
Several simple low cost composting system are under operation with
recycling of microbes very easily for large scale garbage treatments in
Brasil.If any one need detail we will be ready to send them to apply to
glucerin waste, but not hot composting.How ever hot composting, novel
biodigestion can be combined to recover fertilizer, feed and fuel in order to
make the biofuel process sustainable.
Some yeast like candida can also accept directly FFA and glycerol growing
fast in semisolid fermentation producing biosrfactants, which can be futher
fermented and recovered after hot composting, and noval biodigestions with
fiberous vegetable materials , making the system more flexible . This system
is yet to be experimented, even though look like complex one.
Any critical analysis of this system outlined here are wellcome and I
hope the points raised here can make a new road map to reality of the the
future work.This can be yet with cock tail approach or refining approach.After
neutralizatation , one may use diluted cock tails to make noval
bioproduts.This is very interesting route too.
But what are the best route and best products ?.May be our KEITH OR TODD
can
help to find this one.Why not all the member of biofuel group too have brain
storming to come out the best one, not simply leaving this job to only few.Too
many cooks need not always spoil the eggs, but can help to make the eggs
less harmful to all with the hep of the nework and keith and todd of course.
I am very sorry for this long letter and wish to be very short in future.
Thanking you all
Sd
Pannirselvam
Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Todd
>Hello Keith,
>
>We've done a lot of the same work here. Haven't gotten down to the nitty
>gritty of fabricating a Babbington or Turk burner, but we have shipped out
>the soap/glycerin/alcohol/caustic to a company that distributes the Clean
>Burn brand of waste oil boilers and heaters for a test burn.
>
>Results came back positive for the cocktail, as had previous results for
>WVO, Ohio crude straight out of the ground, biodiesel and SVO.
>
>These units are designed to burn waste motor oil, used transmission and
>hydraulic fluids. Largely the same principal as the Babbington - increased
>air supply in the combustion chamber.
>
>We are concerned with a couple of aspects with such industrial models. One
>is their cost, which is out of range of almost anyone in the residential
>sector. Two is the long term corrosive effects of the catalyst portion of
>the cocktail on expensive machinery.
Yes, that's our conclusion too. Someone we know has just scored a
couple of these things for very little because they suddenly became
illegal in that country - they're refurbished etc, and he's going to
use them. I think they're overkill for what most of us are doing. So
I'm dropping that line of inquiry, though I'll stay abreast of what
gets done with these two particular units. For us, for the
unseparated cocktail - milk-carton sawdust logs. We can use those,
but it won't nearly account for our whole production of by-product.
>Those concerns put us right back into a FFA/glycerin recovery mode.
Right.
>At least
>we know that the recovered FFAs can be easily used as a fuel oil component
>due to their low viscosity and the catalyst, recovered as potassium
>phosphate, can be used on local farms or residential landscapes.
>
>That still leaves the glycerin....which, by the way and for purposes of this
>and future conversations, we need to adequately define, label and perhaps
>rename so as to not create confusion between the
>glycerin/soap/alcohol/catalyst cocktail and the recovered glycerin from the
>FFA recovery process.
I've been referring to the glycerin/soap/alcohol/catalyst cocktail as
"by-product", and when I mean glycerine I say "separated glycerine" -
which could be a bit ambiguous, it could be confused with separating
the by-product (the cocktail) from the ester at the end of the
biodiesel production process. I guess we'll just have to make
ourselves clear each time.
>Personally, I favor the recovery of the FFAs and using them as a fuel oil,
>as do I favor the neutralization of the caustic by turning it into
>fertilizer...not "organic", but it's no longer caustic either.
Depends what you do with it. I won't apply it to the soil but I'm
happy to add it to a compost pile. We use one-cubic-metre composting
units here, very intense stuff goes on in there at high heat, it all
ends up in the tissues of some or another beneficial micro-bug, no
problem. (I also just made some special-purpose compost in a flower
pot, only 1/3-cubic ft, it went up to 55 deg C, 130 deg F, stayed
there for four days, and now it's finished - bit of a myth that you
need bulk for hot composting.)
These neutralised salts are just minerals anyway, not exactly Agent
Orange, eh? Nothing you don't find in the soil anyway, but adding
them direct in the pure form throws the soilfood web out of kilter;
pre-composting won't do that, if the ratios are small. Organics
standards? Well, they don't mean anything anymore anyway. I'll do
what I know, thankyou.
>I would tend
>to think that a glycerin cocktail thrown into a digester would tend to
>decimate some of the microbial action, whereas recovered glycerin might not
>effect such a setback in the process.
Yes, I'd agree, though I'd like to know more about that. Pannirselvam
just posted some interesting info on it from Brazil, hope to take it
further.
I'd think it would be a bit like composting - you'd very easily
drench a 1/3-cubic ft flower pot, but not so easily a big pile. It
would be useful to know just how best to handle the cocktail in a
digester, what the limitations would be, as opposed to glyc-FFA, or
just the glyc.
>Of course there is the alcohol fraction of the cocktail whose effects would
>need to be taken into consideration in a digester.
Prior methanol recovery, ie removal, might prove to be more critical
than FFA/catalyst separation.
>I don't know. Maybe there needs to be a methane digester "how to" cookbook
>that also covers the inclusion of glycerin or glycerin cocktail.
There does, I hope that in time between us all we'll manage to
produce such a thing, or something like it.
>You know...once one wheel is made a thousand can be cast from the same mold.
>Certainly would save a lot of duplicated effort across the globe.
Yes - perhaps one of the roles of groups like this one, don't you think?
regards
Keith
>Todd Swearingen
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 8:49 PM
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re:To Chris problems sep. glycerine
>
>
> > 'Lo Todd
> >
> > >Okay laddie,
> > >
> > >As to useful ends of glycerin, I'm at a standstill. Not everyone has an
> > >industrial glycerin refiner down the road and few are producing biodiesel
> > >from virgin oils, making their glycerin somewhat acceptably usable in
>some
> > >manufacturing uses.
> >
> > ... didn't Mark say she couldn't find a buyer for the 95% stuff (or
> > so-ish) that you get from separation?
> >
> > >So I think it's probably time everyone started looking at digestion as a
> > >termination point.
> >
> > When I was working with separating the by-product (back in Osaka,
> > same time as you were) I got a very reliable process, and a nice,
> > light-coloured, clear, glycerine layer in the middle, from rather
> > poor-quality WVO feedstock, so I'm not sure about what people are
> > saying now that it has to be virgin oil to be usable. I still have
> > that stuff. It just needs neutralizing (not much), and I suppose you
> > could decolorize it with fuller's earth or charcoal or something. It
> > will work just fine for preserving plants and flowers for instance,
> > whereas raw by-product certainly won't.
> >
> > With unseparated by-product (glycerine/catalyst/soap, with or without
> > excess methanol), Tony's method of mixing it with sawdust in a milk
> > carton and burning it like a log works well - but you have to start
> > up the fire with wood and get it burning hot first, and, though the
> > glyc-logs burn hot and for a long time, it seems to require adding
> > more wood and building the fire up again at the end of the burn, or
> > you start getting fumes as it all cools down. Bit like starting up
> > and shutting down an SVO system on petro or bio.
> >
> > So far we find separated FFAs burn much better in anything
> > approaching a burner that you could use as a heating source than
> > unseparated by-product does - almost as well and about as cleanly as
> > biodiesel, in fact. Haven't done any comparative work with the
> > separated glycerine yet though, and haven't got satisfactory results
> > using unseparated by-product as fuel.
> >
> > Separation's useful - it's worth doing and then exploring what
> > options you have with the products, what you might be able to find a
> > market/use for, whether it all ends up being worth your while.
> >
> > What most people want to do with it, once they have enough degreaser
> > to last them a couple of lifetimes, is use it for process heat in
> > making biodiesel. It seems though that there just isn't enough of it
> > - that much by-product will only raise the temp of your feedstock
> > about 5 deg C at best. David Teal and Chuck (and others?) have said
> > they use it for process heat, but so far it's not clear that they're
> > not also using other heat sources - most likely it's supplementary.
> > Burning it in what, a Babington or a Turk burner or a pot burner or
> > something, I suppose, but we're finding it doesn't burn very well
> > that way.
> >
> > So, yes, we're thinking more and more that chucking it in a digester
> > might be better - again, only as a supplement, same as composting it:
> > you CAN'T compost it, not by itself, it has to be mixed with other
> > stuff and broken up to allow aeration and so on. Something similar
> > with biogas, the by-product would just be a supplement. not sole
> > feedstock.
> >
> > So how much can you add, to what scale/type of digester, what else do
> > you need to add, what sort of production (methane) do you get out of
> > it?
> >
> > I said on another thread (biogas) that we'd been talking to some
> > people here and should have some more stuff to post soon... Hopefully
> > that should start after this weekend.
> >
> > I also said I'd make up an annotated list of biogas resources and
> > post them here, but I didn't say I'd do it fast - most of the work's
> > done, but it still needs an hour or two's work. Next week soonest.
> >
> > Not delaying - I really want to get discussion going here on these
> > issues, and related issues. Just don't have any time at the moment,
> > I'm not going to be able to get at the keyboard much this weekend.
> >
> > >Care to unleash your plethora of information and sources upon the
>glycerin
> > >bedraggled?
> >
> > :-) Soonest, promise - also feeling in danger of drench, I was
> > wondering where I'm going to put the next batch of the stuff... With
> > woodchips in milk cartons in the fire grate under our cannibal tub of
> > a bath is where, I guess, for now. Until we get a digester in
> > operation we look like being extremely clean persons, very thoroughly
> > and frequently bathed, if not par-boiled.
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> >
> > >Todd Swearingen
> > >
> > > > ... or chuck the whole by-product into a digester and turn it into
> > > > methane. Not by itself though - you also need N stuff and C stuff and
> > > > fibre and water.
> > > >
> > > > Best
> > > >
> > > > Keith
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