Keith, sorry I've not got back to you, been working away.
Thanks for the links & lengthy reply, very interesting reading! Took a
while to get through but enlightening. I appreciate the time & trouble
you took to put that together! Thanks. You're a clever guy, wish I had
lecturers like you when I was at Uni, could have been a lot more
interesting.
Anyway the work you do & the time you spend for the benefit of the rest
of us is appreciated by many, so don't be too racked off when the odd
one shows up to be "a fly in the ointment"
Best regards
Malcolm
-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 20 May 2004 18:27
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Dear Malcolm
>Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back!
:-) Good to have you.
>I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words.
>
>I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life,
>especially here in the UK.
Well then let's see if we can cheer you up a little over the general
prospect.
>We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an
>increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic
>migrants & reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever
>growing population of Asian people, a very hard working &
>successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically
>changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming
>fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is
>a small Island compared to
>the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can
>creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole
But many Americans are most bothered about how that's happening
there, along with the fragmentation you mention, more usually seen in
the US case as a polarisation (though with more sides than two, as
yet).
> - as the land & resources run out, panic sets in & people become
>deffensive & possessive over what they have.
That state of mind has many potential routes of arrival. Again in the
US, what many blame is the exploitation and engendering of fear (the
emotion, as opposed to actual risk and danger). Perhaps we have to
look further for the true causes.
>This
>situation has led many Brits to upsticks & move to Spain & elsewhere
>- perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation?
Or dislocation? Yes, I know they call it relocation.
>I guess you're right. Maybe "inherrant" was a bad choice of wording.
>However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all
>the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of "greed"
>that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving
>everyday people, & goes right to the top with our politicians, some
>of
>the biggest "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all
that.
Ah, now, would you mind if I rearranged things a little? How about:
"This starts at the top with our politicians, some of the biggest
"greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that, & goes
right to a basic level, involving everyday people." Now try seeing it
as a ploy rather than a (natural) phenomenon, so you can ask Who
benefits?, and then ask How and Why. If it's the result of a more or
less successful ploy, and a very heavily funded one at that, then you
can see it as imposed rather than inherent. Comparisons that confirm
that are quite easy to find.
>Collectively we are all subscribing to a "greed" ellement in our
>lives, we vote for politicians.
Do you vote for the "choice" you're presented with? "... scrawled
wisdom in the men's loo at a Brighton pub, circa 1980 - 'If voting
could change anything it would be illegal'." Gore Vidal says of the
US that the two parties are really one party representing 4% of the
people. The 4% is probably optimistic. Chomsky talks of the two
branches of the business party. It's much the same in the UK. Did you
vote for that?
>As consumers, we are fuelling the greed of corporations who want to
>profit from us.
Yup. How do you think it is that they manage to kick "you" and
society into the "best" shape to enable that? As we naturally are
wouldn't work all that well, and indeed it didn't.
Advertising is now a $435 billion business. But that's a conservative
estimate of annual global expenditures. If all forms of marketing are
included, the figure rises to nearer $1 trillion. This is a little
simplistic, but nonetheless it's true to say that advertising has one
major purpose - to make people feel dissatisfied with what they've
got. That figure of $1 trillion probably doesn't include much of the
huge amounts spent on manipulating opinion ("manufacturing consent")
via the PR industry, the right-wing foundations and the "think-tanks"
they fund so heavily, the corporate and other support for politicians
and political campaigns, which comes in many forms, subversion of the
media via ownership and concentration...
Another quote -- Australian social scientist Alex Carey says "The
20th century has been characterized by three developments of great
political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of
corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of
protecting corporate power against democracy." You can fool too many
of the people too much of the time.
>As biofuel advocates, yes we are striving to save us all from
>environmental ruin, but at the same time we rub our hands in glee
>that we could be providing fuel for
>our own use without lining the coffers of corporations and governments.
Hm... You're stretching it a bit Malcom, I wouldn't see that as
greed, there's a lot more to it. Sure, a lot of us (no idea what
proportion) just want to save a buck, especially when everyone's
squealing about high fuel prices (though they aren't high, yet), and
to hell with the rest of all this idealistic head-in-the-clouds crap
that goes with it. On the other hand, a lot may start off that way,
but when they start doing it it changes them. One of the most
important aspects of DIY biofuels is that it empowers people - I
think that's the real blow that gets struck against the
powers-that-be, it undoes the disastrous (IMO) disempowerment that's
been a major and intended result of all the industrial-duty
"persuasion" that's been chucked at us since birth.
>We are all subscribing to a greed culture of sorts, but that in
>itself is no bad thing as long as it ensures healthy competition,
>choice, & benefit to all, leaving no one out of the equation.
>Unfortunately there are many in the world that are left out, which
>was really my point.
It's worse than that. They're not left out, they're very much
included. The wealth concentration that's behind all this drag it
gets dressed up in absolutely relies on them. It's not wealth
creation as alleged, it's wealth extraction, and poverty creation.
That's the reality of neo-liberal economics. It's got progressively
worse in the last couple of decades of corporate globalisation. See,
for one instance (bit of an embarrassment of riches here, so to
speak):
http://www.cepr.net/globalization/scorecard_on_globalization.htm
The Scorecard on Globalization 1980-2000
>As a biologist I see it as more of a case of parasitism or symbiosis,
>where the current emphasis, endorsed by politicians & corporations
>is of a parasitic nature - "take what you can no matter what the
>consequences - that's the next generation's problem" or, the
>symbiotic approach, "take what you need, use it wisely & don't take
>anymore untill you know there's plenty more to take from again"
Yes. There's a similar issue with risk-assessment vs the
precautionary principle. It echoes and resonates in so many things,
and all of them point to the main issue in the world today, now as
ever, that of people vs power - and how that basic conflict can be
rendered symbiotic and not parasitic, which has always been the wish
of the people, but seldom or never that of the powerful, who are not
healthy people, or in the case of corporations, not even people.
>I'm not racist or fiercly nationalistic, I'm pro globalisation, it
>would help pull down the barriers between nations if we learned to
>share resources for the common good,
I don't think many people are anti-globalisation, though that's what
the bulk of the mainstream media invariably dubs the globalisation
protesters. They're not against globalisation, they're very much
against *corporate* globalisation, not for the common good. I think
your idea of it, and mine, shared by many of us here, and discussed
previously, has more to do with Marshall McLuhan's "Global Village",
doesn't it? A different thing, and the future.
>but I just don't think we have learnt enough yet, as a species, to
>take things to that level, why? Because "greed" places that element
>of doubt & suspicion that triggers
>the selfish side of mankind. We have still a long way to go, and
>much to learn before we shrug off our greatest burdon.
I don't think you're defining it correctly. We humans and our
societies are basically okay, we're very capable, skilful,
experienced, certainly capable of living a sustainable life on Planet
Earth in a positive and mutually beneficial, *symbiotic* relationship
with each other and the rest of the biosphere, of which we're nothing
but an integral part, and of doing so indefinitely. The
*institutions* of our societies however are another matter, and it's
here that you find that the selfish, greedy, immature traits you see
tend to be inherent. We and our institutions are NOT the same. They
may be composed of humans, but they're NOT just the sum of their
parts, and not to be regarded in ordinary human terms. I'm not saying
they're all evil, I've never said that, though I've often been
accused of painting all corporations (for instance) black. Not so.
But if they want to be evil, there's little or nothing we can do to
stop them, and that is the problem that desperately needs a solution,
now more than ever.
I quite often refer to Roberto Verzola, secretary-general of the
Philippine Greens, on this issue. Have a look at what Roberto has to
say about it:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30617/
>If I sound like I'm spouting a load of uneducated twaddle - please
>say so & I'll put on my sombraro and sod off to Spain with everyone
>else. Lol
:-) Don't do that (unless you want to). I do think you should
consider the relationship between greed and cooperation more closely,
as in the two previous posts I referred you to.
Or in biology. Darwin didn't much like Origin of the Species, he had
to be more or less cajoled into publishing it. I think you had to be
a Victorian to interpret it as the Law of the Jungle, "survival of
the fittest", and justification for what the powers-that-be of the
Victorian era needed to justify. That we still do so, many of us, is
an anachronism, but an engineered one, not an accident, and not
because it holds any water.
As you know, "survival of the fittest" is not the Law of the Jungle,
it's not the law of anything much other than a shamelessly rigged
economic system, such as the Victorian "liberal" economics of which
the Neo-Liberal brand is a revival (if you can call a vampire a
"revival").
The true Law of the Jungle, if there is one (and it wouldn't be a
"law"), is symbiosis, the most powerful and common force at work
there, or just about anywhere else in Nature. Of course competition
and the survival of the fittest is also to be found there, but it's
far from the major force at work. The true relation in Nature between
competition (read "greed") and symbiosis (read "cooperation") turns
out to be, well, symbiotic.
That's what we have to force (yes) upon our societies' aberrant and
immature institutions.
Another view, that of health. There's more to health than the mere
absence of disease. If you say that to a representative of our modern
industrialised medical services he/she probably won't know what
you're talking about (though there are more and more exceptions).
Primary health care workers in 3rd World countries often know it
though. To take it further, disease is a part of health (lit.
"wholeness"), there is no absence of disease, it's not an option.
Perhaps the best picture of health is that of a good forest, it's
most obvious, a healthy organism, it shines out everywhere. Yet, if
you look closely, all the diseases and pests are there, but they
don't get a grip - unless the balance is upset and they get out of
control. Otherwise they do their job when there's a call for it and
then retreat.
So yes, Malcolm, you're right, the diseases of greed and selfishness
are indeed inherent in all of us, but the real problem is that the
balance of our societies have been upset and they've got out of
control. With horrendous effect, as we can all see, and yet it's not
as severe (and depressing) a problem as it would be if things were
the way you see them, that we all nurture inherently evil traits
which we have not learnt to control and doing so will take a long
time (generations). All we have to do is to restore the balance, deal
with the source of the malaise, rather than the symptoms of it. Learn
how to kill a mammoth, as Roberto Verzola would put it. That is not
beyond our immediate abilities.
This is an interesting thread that you missed while you were away, I
think you might enjoy it:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/32837/1
A lot to read, but worth it I think. To cut it down a bit, that link
gives you an index to the whole thread along with the original
article, then skip to these:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32840/
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/32872/
Best wishes
Keith
>Regards
>
>Malcolm
>
>Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Malcolm, by the way, welcome back! Glad you're okay.
>
>Regards
>
>Keith
>
>
> >Hello Malcolm
> >
> >>Interesting views aired, and valid too. But no nation is without
> >>guilt at some point in its history, in its treatment of its own
> >>nationals and those of other nations, past or present.
> >>The universal word that applies to us all, whatever nationality, is
> >>greed. As soon as we all loose this seemingly inherrant trait - the
> >>world will become something towards true freedom. I doubt I will
> >>see that day in my lifetime - but we have to hope, for the sake of
> >>our children.
> >
> >I don't agree with you that greed is a universal trait inherent to
> >all. It's an aberration, not at all normal. The major activity of
> >humans in society is cooperation. It's so common, ingrained in so
> >much that we do, and for so long, that we mostly fail to notice it,
> >like water to a fish.
> >
> >Please have a look at these two previous posts:
> >
> >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30675/
> >
> >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30694/
> >
> >Best wishes
> >
> >Keith
> >
> >
> >>Kindest regards
> >>
> >>Malcolm
> >>
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "balaji" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for
> >> > India and had many positives.
> >>
> >>"We are bringing them to Christianity" said Slater on the slave
ship.
> >>
> >>An upright and honest judicial system that
> >> > continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black
> >>laws enacted
> >> > by the administration.
> >>
> >>The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth
> >>exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all
> >>about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being
> >>spiritual non-materialistic beacons into judges who would ensure
> >>transactions that bled India of its resources.
> >>
> >>The many voices of conscience from Britain that spoke
> >> > up for the natives.
> >>
> >>Churchill's voice rose above them all: "naked little fakhir".
Voices
> >>were raised around the world. Yet the British kept electing racist
> >>imperialistic governments
> >>
> >>The excellent education system which was mostly secular
> >> > with little attempt at religious proselytisation.
> >>
> >>To transform Indians into good little servants - engineers,
technical
> >>workers, etc. to better exploit the nation. Indians left alone
would
> >>nevertheless have an excellent school system. They have no one to
> >>thank.
> >>
> >>Proselytisation would have spelled an unmanageable jihad against the
> >>occupiers. It was a practical choice, nothing more.
> >>
> >>The basic railroad that
> >> > has mushroomed
> >> > into the largest in the world.
> >>
> >>The railroad was built to move resources and workers. It was a
> >>system designed to rob Indians of their resources as efficiently as
> >>possible. What Indians did with it after the Brits were booted out
> >>is a testament to Indians, not to the British.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I think it had partly to do with the British sense of justice and
> >>fairplay
> >> > (it wasn't cricket) and the rule of law most of them abided by
back
> >>in
> >> > Britain.
> >>
> >>What a crock. Where is the fair play in keeping an entire nation
> >>subjugated by force of arms?. The fairplay myth is just that, a
> >>myth. It may have existed on a coventry cricket field, but it did
> >>not exist in any colony of any empire.
> >>
> >>That's possibly why slave trading initiated by the British in the
> >> > Americas,
> >> > was abolished in 1807, long before it happened in the USA.
> >>
> >>more likely from the extreme guilt associated with being the world's
> >>number one and most ruthless slave traders.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Regards.
> >> >
> >> > balaji
> >>
> >>
> >>good reading on the matter:
> >>
> >>Freedom struggle
> >>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
> >>/8173044422/qid=1084999512/sr=8-15/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i15_xgl14/103-
> >>3251336-7764659?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Pierre
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
<http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129ifcfag/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1085160436/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http:/c
ompanion.yahoo.com> click here
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=group
s/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=117566712>
_____
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70
http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuels list archives:
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
