> >FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:17:04 -0600 (MDT) > >SUBJECT: Re: request for list > > > >From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Well, sorry to be contentious, but I didn't. And this rather proves > > > to me that it's not the list that should mend its ways but you. > > > >Keith clearly this is an issue for you so I will simply drop it.
You make a bunch of mistakes and propose some less-than-useful changes and when I question you on it it's "an issue for me"? LOL! >It is > >your list so you may do with it what you would like. It is NOT my list, and I may NOT do with it as I like. That's your true level of list expertise, huh, to think that, despite all your claims below? It belongs to its members, and I do their bidding, which I'm in a very good position to judge. My own opinions or views and "issues" are no more or less important than any other member's. >I was also > >incorrect, you did not quote the unsubscription information. I was also > >simply trying to make the list more accessible to people who subscribe to > >it the way that I same way I do, not to cater the entire list to myself > >personally (??). > > > >I am also well aware of technologies involving listserves and chatrooms, I > >have built several of both and continue to moderate several email lists. > >Some of these have been successful and some have not. I am also a > >professional website builder and had papers published in college on > >so-called e-anthropology which for example would be an examination of this > >specific online culture, who the "top dogs" (or who thinks they may be a > >"top dog" though the list exists largely outside of reality) and other > >aspects of the social community. Well you'll just have to keep on doing it until you get it right. I know quite a few reporters who've been using computers and computerised systems for years but they still haven't discovered how to cut and paste. You've demonstrated your level of expertise, as opposed to your "experience", and continue to do so - for instance, you've cut the entire previous message, which might be rather convenient for you in the circumstances, but once again it does not promote good comunication. So I'll put it back again (below). > >In regards to the listserve format, the request I made is generally > >considered one of the greatest weaknesses of the email list format. I was > >merely attempting to stengthen the list and I am not quite sure why you > >took it so personally. I didn't, you have. > >I also generally believe that because of these weaknesses, online > >web-based forums have begun to flourish when many online communities (just > >as this one did) started with a fairly healthy email list. One of these, > >with the original list now fledgling, is switching to a dual system where > >it exists both as a subject-sorted online forum and an email list. Here > >is an excellent example: > >http://www.birfield.com/archives/html/landcruisers/2004-06/threads.html Actually, for all its quirks, Yahoo! Groups is an excellent example (having inherited it from e-Groups) - a web board and a mailing list both. Online web-based forums in themselves are a lousy way to handle information. They're opaque, but, more than that, you keep no records and assemble no resources that way. Thus they tend to operate with a very short memory span and are inclined to be superficial. The Lowest Common Denominator soon begins to have a weightier influence than it should. There are not many exceptions to this. Most people who use online web-based forums don't know much about handling information well and so they remain unaware of the limitations of the medium, and are not encouraged to learn better. Okay for chat and banter, not much else. > >However, after reading a quote on your web site about my good friend Jack > >Kenworthy who I went to high school and college with, I am simply > >attempting to enjoy one more resource on the Internet. To which of course you're most welcome. Just please preserve us from your efforts to "strengthen the list", I think we'll manage to struggle along somehow without, as we have been doing for the last four and a half years, not without some success. Keith Addison List owner > >Best of luck, > >Andre Shoumatoff > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_link.html > >"The Biofuel list really helps biofuellers. A typical example: list member > >Jack Kenworthy of the Cape Eleuthera Island School in the Bahamas joined > >the list in November 2002 as a novice. List members helped him learn how > >to make biodiesel from scratch, helped him solve problems he encountered, > >then helped him design and build a processor. Nine months after joining he > >wrote to the list: "Hey All -- just thought I would let you know that I > >just received my results from the ASTM tests [the US ASTM D-6751 biodiesel > >standard] and we passed all categories. Just another good example of a > >homebrewer in a remote setting (Bahamas) making spec-grade biofuel! > >Thanks! -- Jack" > > > > > > > >Andre Shoumatoff > >Park City, Utah, USA > > > >__________________________ > >Utah Biodiesel Cooperative > >www.utahbiodiesel.org Previous: >Hello Andre > >>It is not that big a deal, it is just that I have been on a few >>lists with a similar amount of members (about 2500) and people CAN >>and do trim their messages. Digest mode is also great because it >>makes lists like this accessible to people like me who can't deal >>with 50+ emails a day. But especially in the case of this list, >>people are quoting emails 3 or 4 times aleady and when you are in >>digest mode you see all of it once, twice, three times etc... And I >>understand "relevancy" but they can be trimmed. For example Keith >>go back and read you message, you even quoted the "to be >>unsubscribed" making your email roughly 4 times longer than it >>should have been. > >Well, sorry to be contentious, but I didn't. And this rather proves >to me that it's not the list that should mend its ways but you. If >*you* have another look, you'll see that the footers on my message >do not have a little > thingie in front of them. If it were there it >would mean that it's been quoted, as you say. Don't you know that? >Yahoo adds them afresh to the bottom of each message - Yahoo put it >there, not me. You don't know that either? > >In fact your own snipping ("trimming") is excessive - there are >several messages you could be referring to, I don't know which one >it is, you should have quoted some of it, or at least the subject >line to identify it. You want me to go searching about trying to >find out what you're talking about? Who's got the time? It's your >obligation to make yourself clear. Rather than causing efficiency as >you imagine, you're more likely to be causing confusion. > >Anyway, to get back to the footers, I always cut them. Last night >when I sent two messages referring to your message, it was 3am and I >was tired, but I cut the footers anyway. Since we started this list >more than four years ago I've posted thousands of messages, an >average of 4.48 a day. About a third were new messages; of the other >two-thirds, only four included the footers of the previous message, >which works out at 0.08%. Three of the four were forwards from >another list, one was a "PLEASE READ" Moderator's message asking >people please to cut the footers to save bandwidth. I've asked that >seven or eight times, and most list members do it. So for you to use >me as an example of this and get it wrong is a bit amusing. Someone >else though might have been annoyed, quite rightly. > >As for this unspecified message of mine being four times longer than >it should have been as you allege, that's for me to say, not you, >and I say you're wrong. Like most people here, I snip what needs >snipping, no more or less - clarity is much more important than >brevity. You can't make compulsory rules about snipping, all you can >do is ask people to be aware of it and to do it judiciously. I think >most of us do that. Please don't know conclude that I'm saying we >should all waste bandwidth - there are many people here from 3rd >World countries and elsewhere who have outdated gear and slow and/or >expensive connbections, and we're very concerned not to exclude >them. But, babies and bathwater, eh? > >>and do trim their messages. Digest mode is also great because it >>makes lists like this accessible to people like me who can't deal >>with 50+ emails a day. But especially in the case of this list, > >Not so, and the 50+ is also wrong - it's currently about 37 a day >and seldom goes higher than that, usually quite a lot lower: it's a >medium-volume list, not high-volume. Wrong too about Digest mode - >it's not great, it's a very poor way of handling information, which >is what this list is about, and information is MUCH less accessible >in Digest mode. > >You said previously that you know about filters, but I don't think >you do. I suggest you read this - how to get the best use out of a >mailing list: >http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/21700/ > >Of course it's your prerogative, up to you how you handle it, but >please don't make unreasonable demands on the list as a whole >because you personally don't know how to handle it properly. > >Best wishes > >Keith Addison >List owner > > > >>Imagine all of the coal saved and pollution >>prevented, espeically in the USA, if people simply trimmed their >>email messages :) (and that is not a joke! Sort of :) ) >> >>Andre >> >> >>Andre Shoumatoff >>Park City, Utah, USA >> >>__________________________ >>Utah Biodiesel Cooperative >>www.utahbiodiesel.org ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM --------------------------------------------------------------------~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
