Thank you Keith, and I recall previously reading your notes about Graham. Moreeover, if I can quote his retraction as a sited example for future reference it would be a great adjunct to my presentations. So far, the "industry" is still inviting me to participate and we expect to offer more qualified presentations to the industry as we present our "papers". These presentations are sometimes considered as "Peer Reviewed" in as much as we must submit for approval and pass acceptable guidelines. This process helps build a vita. A vita is important in some funding activities.
If we are too radical, we will not be accepted nor will we be invited to return in the future. Soooo... keeping afloat in the midst of all the big cruisers, means due diligence and friendly tolerance. When we little fish swim in the big ocean, we have to be quick to not be eaten alive. I was very pleased with the industry reps and their supportive merchants during an international meeting. Let's hope that it stays that way and some of the big fish don't expect to eat all the little fish. Therefore, thank you for the lit. review. Sighting the article or media retraction by Graham would be nice to have. Just in passing, I sometimes think that your thoroughness is a bit tough, (on the listers) but then, now I am asking for the fruits of your labor from such practices. As a child I was taught to travel the middle road. And that temperance still helps in business and social encounters. Then as a young adult I learned to travel my own path but keep up an acceptable image for the sake of family and future business dealings. Now as a senior citizen, I have great empathy for the volatile eruptions of the impassioned and understand their suffering when it is reflected back. Keeping an acceptable public image helps soften the reaction, even when one feels like being more flamboyant. And then that is my imagined role--passive aggressive. And I hope to do some good. Thanks for the note. Best wishes, Peggy Subject: Re: FW: [Biofuel] what are the on about? Hello Peggy Good for you, it's certainly worth a try. But, with some exceptions, you're dead right about the "offensive/ defensive dichotomy" and that the competitive (defensive?) attitude needs to be changed to one of cooperation. That isn't easy with a lot of those people. Do you recall I once referred you to the saga of Graham Noyes? >Still, we're not against big business, nor necessarily pro small >business, you can't use that broad a brush. The usual response of >big business though is not very surprising. Try a search here for >"Noyes" if you want an interesting read: >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuels-biz/ > >Briefly, Graham Noyes, VP-Sales of World Energy, viewed backyard >mavericks as a peril to biodiesel, though they could be useful for >publicity purposes (if you could discipline them). This was also the >view of the NBB. Graham came to us to drum up support for soy >subsidies, and got something of a surprise. When it emerged that we >didn't exactly think the NBB and its members were the answers to all >our problems he told us we were "anti-biodiesel"! > >But Graham ended up being forced to change his mind about a lot of >things, to retract quite a lot of what he'd said, admitting it was >without foundation, and he had the good grace to apologise, which >earned him a lot of respect, of course. He also undertook to try to >educate "industry" about small brewers. Now he heads the NBB's small >producer working group, or I think he heads it, he's certainly a >mover there. Such a group would previously have been unthinkable. >It's been making some progress, but they still haven't really >grasped what the "grass roots" as they call it is all about, nor its >needs. What Graham was forced to retract was his claim of "actual cases" of sub-spec homebrew causing widespread damage and wrecking the market. He finally admitted that it was baseless industry rumour-mongering, that he knew of no case of homebrew causing problems, and that we can and do make quality fuel. But that wasn't easy for him to do, he really had to be forced. All credit to him that he didn't just storm off in a hiff, as others have done. A lot of the industry folks, in the US and elsewhere, still think that. (Hey, you can even see Amzi moving in that direction now he's got ambitious plans! LOL!) And since then we've had these repeated instances of sub-spec industry/NBB brew causing widespread damage and wrecking the market - and the NBB didn't even notice it!! Good luck, strength to your arm. Keith >Hello Keith, > >I hope to learn much more during this next few months on influencing the >automotive industry to cooperate with the biofuels industry. Our group >may have begun as backyard enthusiasts, and we are moving beyond this >title. > >I visited with one of the "big daddys" of the biofuels industry that >acted as though our opinion was valuable. Then I went to the government >people (state level) to confirm recommendations to be turned into the >governor. Guess what? To date, he has failed to follow through with >sharing information or receiving input. Seems like he asked enough >questions to gather personal information and may not be so interested in >the industry as a developmental process, but more in his personal wealth >from within the industry. > >There is enough wealth in the world for everyone to live >comfortably--especially in our country. When I spoke (presented) at the >International Fuel Ethanol Workshop, the point of the lecture was that >there is enough interest and action on the grass roots level to impact >the industry and rather than objecting, the heavy producers should >understand the advantages of enlarging the industry overall. Then I got >into some non-standard discussions about alternatives to the >alternatives. The talk was well received and I was invited to present >again (which I hope to depending on our project reports). However, if >the "big boys" even within the biofuels industry perceive that it is >possible to share in the emerging potential wealth, they seem to move >toward the offensive/ defensive dichotomy. > >This is not a game of football. We are not out to bash the other team. >In my opinion, the biofuel's interest should be more like a sewing bee >or Thanksgiving dinner. Well, that's the other side of the other >coin... And this boils down to competition ethics and perhaps changing >a sport's like attitude to a cooperative attitude. Well, just reporting >what is happening on the frontier. More later as things progress. > >Peggy > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >Behalf Of Keith Addison >Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:55 AM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [Biofuel] what are the on about? > >Hello frag lag, Bob and all > > >so what are the advantages compared to "our" way? > >The "advantages" are that it's expensive and capital-intensive, so it >can easily be controlled by the powers-that-be, it's no threat to the >status quo, business as usual. Those are the "disadvantages" of "our" >way - all these out-of-control hairy unkempt anarchist "grass-roots" >hippies making biodiesel in their backyards have absolutely wrecked >it for serious people like industrialists and oil companies and so >on. (Though it has to be admitted, even if under extreme pressure, >that all the problems they've caused by wrecking the market with >sub-standard biodiesel turn out to be entirely non-existent and that >ALL such problems have been caused by serious people like >industrialists and so on). > >Anyway, that's why folks like Mercedes and Volkswagen are putting >their eggs in this heavily industrialised and centralised basket >rather than biodiesel. Biodiesel it ain't. It is biofuel though - but >how much fossil fuel is consumed in producing it? They call it >"sunfuel", biofuel made from scratch, from any biomass you choose - >the carbo V process, followed by a Fischer-Tropsch gas to liquid >conversion. > >I think another advantage of it is that it's more like dinodiesel >than biodiesel is. Probably this is why VW, for instance, isn't too >bothered about whether the 5th-generation Golf's injector pump is >compatible with biodiesel or not. > >I think that if we all do our jobs properly, in the end it won't >matter much. The major auto makers will eventually be forced by >market pressure to produce true multi-fuel diesels like the Elsbett >motor, equally capable of running on dinodiesel, or biodiesel, or >straight vegetable oil (SVO/PPO) or "sunfuel" or any mix of them >without modification or problems or much if any emissions problems. > >Cars like the 5th-generation Golf, if indeed it proves incompatible >with biodiesel, or the other new diesels Aleks mentioned recently, >will be produced for the few years in the interim, and thereafter >won't be much sought after in comparison with either the very many >more older diesels (diesels last a long time!) or the new multi-fuel >models. > >The people on this list and the many others like us have a crucial >role to play in this, IMHO. > >Best wishes > >Keith > > > >>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] what are the on about? > >>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 14:55:10 -0500 > >> > >>This is simple pyrolysis. One heats up any plant or amimal matter, > >>in the absence of oxygen. Another term for the same process is > >>distructive distillation. It produces a mixture somewhat like > >>crude oil (fossil) The trick is to do it effeciently. See for > >>example > >> > >> http://www.btgworld.com/technologies/pyrolysis.html > >> > >>frag lag wrote: > >> > >>>http://www.schoolsite.utwente.nl/ct/profielwerkstukken/PWS/scheikun > >>>de/rijden_op_hout.doc/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>A dutch web site ,the name under the firest picture (top one of 3) > >>> > >>>says raw biodiesel ??? looks more like dino to me... > >>> > >>>part of the text > >>>Het maken van biodiesel is geen koud kunstje. Vaste biomassa wordt > >>>bij hoge temperaturen (~ 500 oC) en in afwezigheid van zuurstof > >>>omgezet tot een gas dat afkoelt tot een vloeistof. Dit proces, > >>>pyrolyse, staat nog in de kinderschoenen. > >>> > >>>rough translation: > >>>Making biodiesel isn't easy , solid biomass is gassed at 500 > >>>degrees celcious (in a vaccume) that cools to a liquid, this > >>>process called pyrolyse is still in it's infantcy. > >>> > >>>any idea what they are talking about? > >>>(btw , utwente in the link means university of twente) _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
