I think you're responding to the wrong message, it should have been
this one from Kim, not my reply to Doug:
http://wwia.org/pipermail/biofuel/Week-of-Mon-20050307/006623.html
[Biofuel] Cleaning Up Factory Farms
Aw, come on guys! Please don't try to turn me into a cardboard
stereotypical idiot; I don't appreciate it.
I do believe it's you who's been doing the stereotyping, and you
haven't stopped yet. It started with your stereotyping livestock
farmers, though you're one yourself - an exception, you say, yet you
refuse to allow for exceptions.
Kim, where on earth did I ever say anyone who raises animals for
meat is like a slaveholder???
Here:
I appreciate your concern about blanket condemnations, but once
again, would you say "don't condemn all slaveholders; many are
small plantations who treat their slaves decently?"
It's a poor comparison, as what you say below of your own practices
demonstrates.
It was indeed a poor comparison.
I said I raise animals too, and eat their meat when I need to.
Do you treat them decently?
And I ALSO said factory farming is evil, and you and your husband do
NOT FACTORY FARM!
Just leave it alone, okay? You're twisting this all out of its
original context and fighting a battle that doesn't exist. Jeez, I'm
a farmer, for God's sake. Factory farms are not farms, they are
factories. I have never said anything that lumps you and your
husband into all of that, so please stop defending yourself.
But you did, and if Kim hadn't questioned you, I would have. You said this:
To answer your question, Keith, my organization, Carolina Biodiesel
Inc (www.carolinabiodiesel.org) has already discussed and made
official policy that we would not morally be able to use animal
waste as a feedstock no matter how cheap it was or who else was
doing it. We decided we did not want to benefit from the back door
of factory farming, even if it meant we could no longer compete
with other producers. wrong is wrong.
No exclusion for farmers who do it properly - no animal wastes,
that's that, because factory farms are evil.
I'm not your enemy. And I repeat, no biodiesel producer is going to
be getting millions of gallons of lard or tallow from humane family
farms such as yours.
Why do you keep saying "millions of gallons"? What difference does
the quantity make? How about 10 gallons? Or a hundred, even a
thousand? All feasible quantities for local producers sourcing from
local family farms, or for local family farms to use as a feedstock
themselves. But Bo says no, it's wrong, so maybe we'd better not - he
didn't say anything about family farms with humane practices, so
let's not risk it.
You're obscuring the original point of this e-mail dialogue, which
was about huge quantities of animal wastes, not a gallon from a goat.
You have stated that you will not use animal waste as a feedstock,
whether it's in huge quantities or a gallon from a goat is not
relevant because you insist on a blanket condemnation. And you are
ignoring several good points that have been made, labelling it as
defensive doesn't defuse them. AND you are insulting, though nobody
insulted you:
And Keith, you remind me a little of one of the talk show hosts --
no one ever comes out better than you on your own listserve.
If you say so, I've never seen a talk show host so I wouldn't know.
What I say is that it's kind of strange that you see it in terms of
winners and losers, but it makes you a sore one. I really don't care
who wins or who loses - you play that game and there are no winners,
everyone loses. Anyway, who's counting, vicar? I've never kept any
track of who comes out better, I just don't see it that way, that's
not what we're doing here. I've said this before: "I don't have time
for personal issues, I'm not interested in the personalities involved
- not even mine, certainly not yours. I run the list like I've run
newspapers in the past (always with success), and you don't do that
by getting hung up on personalities or insisting on your own "view"."
Believe it or not. And it's not my listserve, it belongs to its
membership, I'm just the driver.
In each of our exchanges you found a way to chide me a little even
when we were saying practically the same thing.
Practically? I think not. Almost, perhaps, at times, but there were
critical differences, and I was quite clear about them. It's an
important issue that I'm much involved in and I'm not about to go
along with something I don't agree with just in case there might be
an oversensitive soul around who might feel chided by it. (And then
accuses other people of being defensive.)
I'm not interested in wasting my time with banter and petty argument.
This is a petty argument?
But Kim is right. Unless you add some such proviso to your
exclusion, your blanket condemnation could indeed harm the good
guys. For one thing, though you might be well aware of the
difference, you shouldn't presume that others will be. You could
well be persuading them to condemn the wrong people, possibly in
other spheres too, not just biodiesel. Factory farms are an
anachronism, they don't have a future; farmers like Kim are the
future, and blanket condemnations now could warp that future for
them and for us all.
You ignored it. Are you going to insist on your blanket condemnations
nonetheless? It seems so.
Punch my name up on Google and you'll see that I'm one of the good
guys just like you. Stop trying to make me wrong and we'll get along
a lot better.
You've made yourself wrong, you didn't need any help. Kim's set it
straight and so did I. If your terms for getting along a lot better
are to agree with you no matter what then we won't be getting along a
lot better. Gratuitous insults and attempting to belittle others'
views also aren't good ways of getting along a lot better.
This is my last entry into this beef (excuse the pun).
Whatever.
Keith
Bo Lozoff
From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Factory farms vs. large cities
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 20:50:45 +0900
Hi Doug
Hi,
Here is how my simple mind sees the situation. Unless a drastic event
<snip>
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