--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], James Slayden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Graham,
I am starting to think that this isn't just a commerce vs. homebrew think,
but more of a east coast vs. left coast thing. Here is the reason
why. World Energy hasn't been inhibited in moving into the California
market for another reason than they are just slow to proceed. Case in
point, Yokayo is brokering commerce BD as well as Southern States Power
Co., Pacific Biodiesel, and other various small brokers. World Energy is
even is selling BD in the market as there is a pump located in San
Francisco (test case I suppose ....).
Here is what I think. I think that you folks fell beind on your marketing
and distibution channels, as well as getting government, state, county,
and fleet sales contracts in place and you need a scapegoat, ie.
homebrewers/small producers and their supposed lack of spec fuel. Easy
enough to convince most fleet managers as they are afraid of anything new
and improved and hardly ever make a change unless forced to do so by
mandate. Thus when World Energy gets their marketing and distribution
into place they will still have a viable customer base that has believed
that those evil homebrewers/small producers are to blame for all the
troubles and World Energy fuel is safe and consistant. The fleet managers
turn will their backs on the small producers believing them to be
homebrewers and thus World Energy captures the market, with nary a fight.
Very effective tool, as we have seen Microsoft do the very same thing in
the computer industry.
The problems are fictious. If there is fuel being produced that is out of
spec, it is being produced by people probably not assiciated with this
list, and IMO hardly would be of interest to be concerned over other than
scapegoat value to besmerch homebrewers/small producers everywhere.
Now, I am going to give World Energy some credit here. You are very good
business people. And over this weekend I had a chance to test some of
your fuel with the Iowa water method and you fuel is excellent, although
it did smell of some residual alcohol. I have pictures to prove it was
the best of the bunch we were testing. Here is the punchline the commerce
BD that Yokayo brokers was the same quality as some "bad" Berkley Co-op
batches. It just goes to show that even commerce BD isn't always there
yet. Note that when we tested some "good" Co-op batch last weekend it was
awesome fuel. Thank goodness that Mark is a stickler to her specs and
will not allow the bad batches to go out the door at the Co-op until
reprocessed and several tests run on it.
Here is my final word. Get off the Soy bus. There is great fuel being
made out of many different feedstocks by many different types of people,
small producers, and large producers. Soy is lucky as they have a GMO oil
product as a bi-product of their overproduced feed business, and they
realized the capitalization of a market. Again, just good business.
Graham, I think it would be great to work in the biofuels industry, but I
would not do it at a cost of GMO's, non-use of an appropiate renewable
feedstock, organic inputs, and the discounting of alternate methods of
diverse production. I hope that you feel the urge to help reform "Big
Soy" although I'm sure you will find the task daunting. I tip my hat if
you can make any dent into status quo.
Regards,
James Slayden
On Fri, 22 Nov 2002, Graham Noyes wrote:
> I tried to bow out gracefully but the following was a bit much:
>
> (snip)
>
> > > Um, at the cost of having homebrewers dispensed with by means of a
> > > load of BS about us being nothing but a peril who'll bring it all to
> > > naught unless we're controlled? Or at least kept firmly in our place
> > > (our own backyards)? Though we can be useful... Check back and you'll
> > > see that that's basically what Mr Noyes of World Energy was saying.
> > > He was asked how many times? Three? Four? - to substantiate his
> > > claims that substandard-spec homebrew had caused widespread problems
> > > and industry had had to clean up the mess after us. He evaded the
> > > question each time. He can't substantiate it because it's BS. Not the
> > > only thing he evaded. If you think that will at least stop him making
> > > such unsubstantiated claims, even if he can't quite bring himself to
> > > withdraw them, don't hold your breath.
> > >
> > > Noyes, and others like him, couldn't cope with what we actually are
> > > and what we do, as opposed to his patronising idea of us. Have a look
> > > at how he handled the possibility of collaboration with us,
> > > laughable. It's on his terms or nothing, just like the other World
> > > Energy guy who wasted our time with this talk. We're more useful than
> > > these people, and it's them who make it an either-or question, not
> us.
> > >
> > > We're not against industry, that would be foolish, but there's
> > > industry and then there's industry. It's not a case of small vs
> > > large, there's room and need for both, as you say. Some of the big
> > > companies are just fine, no problem at all working with them. But
> > > frankly I think the world needs the likes of World Energy like it
> > > needs a hole in the head.
> > {snip}
> >
> So I'm back again, feeling the need to respond since like most people, I
> hope not to be perceived as some kind of ogre. And because I think these
> discussion groups have some significance and that this path leads this
> group nowhere. For starters, since there's a strong ad hominem dimension
> here, let's start with me, who I am and what I do and don't think. I
> prefer Graham to Mr. Noyes and don't appreciate being shoved into a
> straight-laced corporate persona to suit the writer's agenda. I like
> homebrewers and DIY's and got into the whole biodiesel thing in the first
> place through fascination with renewable energy, VW tinkering and
> learning about Josh and Kaia's Veggie Van through friends from New
> College.
>
> I now am lucky enough to work in the industry and I enjoy almost every
> minute of it. The unique perspective I bring to this discussion is from
> this work. My comments were not intended to be patronizing but to
> provide insight as to what industry concerns are. I did not fabricate
> tales of vehicle problems from homebrew to denigrate DIY's but to share
> my experience. There were a signficant number of reports of downed
> vehicles in a particular area (not destroyed, just clogged) of the
> country last year that I learned about through my full-time work with
> biodiesel users in the West. I am not going to get more specific than
> that because I learned about these vehicles second-hand (though from
> several different people) and I have no direct personal knowledge
> regarding what happened. Frankly I would think that other members of this
> group would have heard similar reports. At any rate, this certainly does
> not prove homebrew inferior but was intended to show what the industry is
> concerned about. My personal opinion is that this part of the country
> was delayed in the acceptance of biodiesel because of these problems.
> This would be the case whether the biodiesel was commercially-produced or
> home-brewed. But the industry knows where to point the finger when
> commercial biodiesel is out of spec and how to respond. Homebrew, as it
> has been pointed out, is more elusive and difficult to control.
>
> I like much of what DIY's have achieved and have always been a fan of
> de-centralized and renewable power production. I am particularly stoked
> that there is progress toward providing developing countries with some of
> these tools. I know that there are real hurdles to legal production for
> small producers. These have far more to do with the EPA than the NBB. If
> you think the NBB is behind the scenes influencing our fuel regulatory
> policy, you are suffering delusions of grandeur on the NBB's behalf. If
> you want the industry to support your agenda, consider participating in
> the NBB. While not claiming to be an ambassador, Josh did a great job
> last week at the NBB meeting in St. Louis laying the groundwork for
> better communication and potential cooperation between the existing
> industry and smaller scale enterprises. BTW, please do recognize that
> most NBB members (and other human beings) think that using hole in the
> head metaphors is a pretty crappy way to deal with people.
>
> Regards and Respects,
>
> Graham
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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