>To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:17:09 -0500
>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
>
>Yes. I saw this comment as well.
>
>"My general dis-trust of the Green political types stems from their
>"everything is bad" point of view. While they put down alternatives,
>they usually (not always) never offer constructive alternatives. Had
>this problem with them when developing wind energy in the Altamont
>Pass of California."
>
>Would have replied then save for the fact that it just would have sucked up
>inordinate amounts of time in "discussion."
>
>Fact of the matter is that Greenpeace never rags on anything without
>proposing a viable alternative - and I do mean n-e-v-e-r.
>
>Doesn't mean that people have to like the alternative, which those absorbed
>in convenience often don't. But the alternatives are there - quite often far
>more productive, economically and environmentally friendly all in the same
>shot.
>
>Problem is that a vast number of people want their environmentalism packaged
>and shrink-wrapped all nice and tidy, rather than waking up to the realities
>that neither life, commerce, corporatism and ethical/principle/moral
>bankruptcy are as attractive as the images one can conjur up if only allowed
>to close their eyes and dream of sugar plums instead.
>
>They'd rather see half the pie compromised away each time until there no
>longer is a half of a half left to sell out.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <biofuel@yahoogroups.com>
>Cc: <biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:00 AM
>Subject: [biofuel] Re: We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
>
>
> > Hi Hakan
> >
> > >Keith,
> > >
> > >Have a language problem, but I sincerely hope that you do
> > >not mean that I in any way want to be identified by his opinions.
> >
> > NO! Aarghhh! Sorry Hakan! Not that at all, quite the opposite -
> > exercised, yes, it's uphill work, eh? Such opinions have given you
> > (and your typing fingers) lots of exercise in countering them.
> >
> > >I am too tired to continue to respond to the kind of stupidity that
> > >Bruce displays and too many with him. I am glad that you do.
> >
> > Well, slowed down to a crawl with my tongue hanging out a bit - maybe
> > you noticed the delay in responding.
> >
> > I don't want to attack Bruce, but he's been spun by the right-wing
> > think-tanks and the "Fair Use" anti-environment manipulators that US
> > affairs are so rife with these days. You may remember that when I
> > cross-posted an atrocious anti-biodiesel message from the Acusorb
> > bead folks, he didn't seem to mind that but took exception to an
> > opening quote from a Greenpeace member:
> >
> > "Techno-fixes are pipe dreams in many cases," said Kert Davies,
> > research director for Greenpeace, which has been conducting a broad
> > campaign against Exxon Mobil. "The real solution," he said, "is
> > cutting the use of fossil fuels by any means necessary."
> >
> > To which Bruce commented:
> >
> > "My general dis-trust of the Green political types stems from their
> > "everything is bad" point of view. While they put down alternatives,
> > they usually (not always) never offer constructive alternatives. Had
> > this problem with them when developing wind energy in the Altamont
> > Pass of California."
> >
> > Lots of "Fair Use" labelling in that. Note that we're expected to
> > accept automatically that the wind energy project was 100% beneficial
> > and its implementation 100% non-destructive, and that the "Green
> > political types" response was simply baseless obstruction. Why would
> > we accept without question that the one-sided view of the developer
> > was objective and unbiased? And why would environmentalists obstruct
> > it without good reason? They're pro-wind - certainly Greenpeace is
> > pro-wind. Maybe it did indeed happen as he described it, but then he
> > should perhaps have given it some substantiation rather than just
> > expecting our blind acceptance of his say-so.
> >
> > Bruce then alleged that Greenpeace is in the pocket of the big energy
> > interests:
> >
> > "... the growing relationship between big corporate energy and the
> > environmental movement. I will over the near term dig up the paper
> > trail (follow the money) linking the large environmental NGO's with
> > the large corporate energy interests."
> >
> > Specifically Greenpeace. But he never did so. I don't hold any brief
> > for Greenpeace, quite the opposite sometimes, but if you're going to
> > make this sort of allegation you should be prepared to back it up -
> > rather you should back it up when you make the allegation. I do think
> > that if there were a *real* paper trail following the money from Big
> > Energy to Greenpeace I'd more than likely know something about it.
> > It's just "Fair Use" spin.
> >
> > Meanwhile Bruce completely lost sight of the anti-biodiesel BS from
> > Acusorb that was the whole point of the post, and the discussion,
> > duly distracted, never returned to that. Spin is effective. A key
> > word ("Greenpeace" in this case) triggers a response which has a good
> > chance of side-tracking the discussion and distracting the attention.
> >
> > Oh well...
> >
> > The original message is here:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=3045&list=BIOFUELS-BIZ
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Keith
> >
> >
> > >Hakan
> > >
> > >
> > >At 03:37 AM 8/19/2003 +0900, Keith Addison wrote:
> > > >Hello Bruce
> > > >
> > > >A strange conception of democracy indeed, that's exercised Hakan and
> > > >others on the Biofuel list before this. It's something seemingly only
> > > >ever heard from some Americans, though very vociferously not from
> > > >others.
> > > >
> > > >Anyway, it's just a label, what the hell - it wouldn't work at all if
> > > >ordinary folks in their daily dealings with each other didn't
> > > >invariably have a great deal more good sense than their so-called
> > > >leaders, elected or not, as do their communities, having figured
> > > >these things out through the many generations and indeed millennia
> > > >that they've survived. But the further you get away from ("above")
> > > >the sort of communities where people know each other, the less
> > > >sensible it gets. Which is the very opposite of what you're inferring
> > > >- that ordinary folks have no sense and cannot be trusted, and that
> > > >the more they have to do with running things the closer you get to
> > > >the lowest common denominator and - urk - "mob rule". What sheer
> > > >nonsense.
> > > >
> > > > >Democracy passes in to despotism.
> > > > >Plato; The Republic, VIII, 562-A
> > > > >
> > > > >The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal
> > > > >things equal. Aristotle
> > > > >
> > > > >It is the besetting vice of democracies to substitute
> > > > >public opinion for law. This is the usual form in
> > > > >which the masses of men exhibit their tyranny.
> > > > >James Fenimore Cooper (1789-1851)
> > > > >
> > > > >Un-restrained capitalism is evil; un-restrained
> > > > >corporatism is evin; un-restrained democracy is
> > > > >maddnes! Un-restrained socialism yields centralized
> > > > >everything and the benefits of nothing!
> > > > >
> > > > >My point is, please stop using the word 'democracy' as
> > > > >if it were worthy of any human interest - it's not.
> > > > >
> > > > >This article is an example of un-restrained
> > > > >corporatism using 'democracy' for it's on evil ends.
> > > > >
> > > > >The simplest example of democracy? Two wolves and a
> > > > >lamb deciding what's for lunch.
> > > >
> > > >Ho-hum, yes, well. Churchill (no, not a fan, not at all) said
> > > >democracy is the worst possible system except for all the others. Or
> > > >something. I'd say that being so ridiculously remiss (or perhaps
> > > >distracted) as to allow undead corporations to acquire more human
> > > >rights than humans have, with humans then becoming second-class
> > > >citizens (serfs, some say), and then allowing these corporations to
> > > >win (?) an unelection that anywhere else would have been called a
> > > >coup, but maybe it'd be more accurate to call it a hostile corporate
> > > >takeover, would definitely be categorised among "all the others",
> > > >down towards the very bottom somewhere.
> > > >
> > > >Best wishes
> > > >
> > > >Keith
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Michael Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > > Thanks Keith,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Lest We Forget . . . "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Michael Allen
> > > > > > Thailand
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:52:51 +0900, Keith Addison
> > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > We've talked about the CIA coup against Mossadegh
> > > > > > in Iran here several
> > > > > > > times, and drawn much the same conclusions. I'm
> > > > > > glad it's getting a bit
> > > > > > > more attention now, very timely.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's the NYT review of Stephen Kinzer's new
> > > > > > book, All the Shah's Men:
> > > > > > > An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East
> > > > > > Terror:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/10/books/review/10BASS.html
> > > > > > > 'All the Shah's Men': Regime Change, Circa 1953
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Keith
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >http://lists.essential.org/pipermail/corp-focus/2003/000158.html
> > > > > > > We Had a Democracy Once, But You Crushed It
> > > > > > > By Russell Mokhiber and Robert Weissman
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fri, 08 Aug 2003
> > > > > > > In yesterday's Washington Post, Condoleeza Rice,
> > > > > > the President's National
> > > > > > > Security Advisor, writes the following:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Our task is to work with those in the Middle East
> > > > > > who seek progress
> > > > > > > toward greater democracy, tolerance, prosperity
> > > > > > and freedom. As President
> > > > > > > Bush said in February, 'The world has a clear
> > > > > > interest in the spread of
> > > > > > > democratic values, because stable and free nations
> > > > > > do not breed
> > > > > > > ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful
> > > > > > pursuit of a better
> > > > > > > life.'"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now, if we only had a nickel for every time Bush,
> > > > > > or Rice, or Colin
> > > > > > > Powell, or Paul Wolfowitz or Dick Cheney or
> > > > > > Richard Perle or Donald
> > > > > > > Rumsfeld talked about bringing democracy to the
> > > > > > Middle East.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Talk, talk, talk.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's something you can bet on: Rumsfeld and
> > > > > > Wolfowitz will not hold a
> > > > > > > press conference this month to commemorate the
> > > > > > 50th anniversary of the
> > > > > > > U.S.-led coup of the democratically elected leader
> > > > > > of Iran -- Mohammed
> > > > > > > Mossadegh.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rice and Powell won't hold a press conference to
> > > > > > celebrate Operation
> > > > > > > Ajax, the CIA plot that overthrew the Mossadegh.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That was 50 years ago this month, in August 1953.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's when Mossadegh was fed up with the
> > > > > > Anglo-Iranian Oil Company --
> > > > > > > now BP -- pumping Iran's oil and shipping the
> > > > > > profits back home to the
> > > > > > > United Kingdom.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And Mossadegh said -- hey, this is our oil, I
> > > > > > think we'll keep it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And Winston Churchill said -- no you won't.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mossadegh nationalized the company -- the way the
> > > > > > British were
> > > > > > > nationalizing their own vital industries at the
> > > > > > time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > But what's good for the UK ain't good for Iran.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If you fly out of Dulles Airport in Virginia, ever
> > > > > > wonder what the word
> > > > > > > Dulles means?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It stands for the Dulles family -- Secretary of
> > > > > > State John Foster Dulles
> > > > > > > and his brother, the CIA director, Allen Dulles.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They were responsible for the overthrow of the
> > > > > > democratically elected
> > > > > > > leader of Iran.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > As was President Theodore Roosevelt's grandson,
> > > > > > Kermit Roosevelt, the CIA
> > > > > > > agent who traveled to Iran to pull off the coup.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now why should we be concerned about a coup that
> > > > > > happened so far away
> > > > > > > almost 50 years ago this month?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > New York Times reporter Stephen Kinzer puts it
> > > > > > this way:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "It is not far-fetched to draw a line from
> > > > > > Operation Ajax through the
> > > > > > > Shah's repressive regime and the Islamic
> > > > > > revolution to the fireballs that
> > > > > > > engulfed the World Trade Center in New York."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kinzer has written a remarkable new book, All the
> > > > > > Shah's Men: An American
> > > > > > > Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror (Wiley,
> > > > > > 2003).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In it, he documents step by step, how Roosevelt,
> > > > > > the Dulles boys and
> > > > > > > Norman Schwarzkopf Sr., among a host of others,
> > > > > > took down a
> > > > > > > democratically elected regime in Iran.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They had freedom of the press. We shut it down.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They had democracy. And we crushed it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mossadegh was the beacon of hope for the Middle
> > > > > > East.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If democracy were allowed to take hold in Iran, it
> > > > > > probably would have
> > > > > > > spread throughout the Middle East.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We asked Kinzer: what does the overthrow of
> > > > > > Mossadegh say about the
> > > > > > > United States respect for democracy abroad?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Imagine today what it must sound like to Iranians
> > > > > > to hear American
> > > > > > > leaders tell them -- 'We want you to have a
> > > > > > democracy in Iran, we
> > > > > > > disapprove of your present government, we wish to
> > > > > > help you bring
> > > > > > > democracy to your country.' Naturally, they roll
> > > > > > their eyes and say --
> > > > > > > "We had a democracy once, but you crushed it,'" he
> > > > > > said. "This shows how
> > > > > > > differently other people perceive us from the way
> > > > > > we perceive ourselves.
> > > > > > > We think of ourselves as paladins of democracy.
> > > > > > But actually, in Iran, we
> > > > > > > destroyed the last democratic regime the country
> > > > > > ever had and set them on
> > > > > > > a road to what has been half a century of
> > > > > > dictatorship."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > After ousting Mossadegh, the United States put in
> > > > > > place a brutal Shah who
> > > > > > > destroyed dissent and tortured the dissenters.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And the Shah begat the Islamic revolution.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > During that Islamic revolution in 1979, Iranians
> > > > > > held up Mossadegh's
> > > > > > > picture, telling the world: we want a democratic
> > > > > > regime that resists
> > > > > > > foreign influence and respects the will of the
> > > > > > Iranian people as
> > > > > > > expressed through democratic institutions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "They were never able to achieve that. And this
> > > > > > has led many Iranians to
> > > > > > > react very poignantly to my book," Kaizer told us.
> > > > > > "One woman sent me an
> > > > > > > e-mail that said: 'I was in tears when I finished
> > > > > > your book because it
> > > > > > > made me think of all we lost and all we could have
> > > > > > had.'"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course, the overthrow of Mossadegh was only one
> > > > > > of the first U.S.
> > > > > > > coups of democratically elected regime. (To see
> > > > > > one in movie form, pick
> > > > > > > up a copy of Raoul Peck's Lumumba, now on DVD.)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Kinzer's previous books include Bitter Fruit: The
> > > > > > Story of the American
> > > > > > > Coup in Guatemala.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He's thinking of putting together a boxed set of
> > > > > > his books on American
> > > > > > > coups.
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