Hi Todd Thanks for the reply but on the JTF site Aleks states not to deviate from any of the instructions and 16 hours of running for a washing machine pump as per Aleks instructions is a bit OTT. I have done a batch as per Aleks recipe and it has totally failed no separation at all. Is there any way of rescueing the batch. Cheers Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs
> Ian, > > I think you'll have to ask Bob what it is that is off the mark for him > and lends to whatever quandry he may or may not be in. > > Acid/base works. It just requires some pretty good understanding of what > is going on in the reaction, what enhances the reaction and what actions > are less than beneficial on the operator's part. > > There are perhaps only three things that I would suggest to modify in > the acid/base process. > > 1) Allow a 24 hour reaction period, of which at least sixteen are under > agitation. > > 2) Drain off any glycerol that settles out prior to moving to the base > stage. As most of the acid will reside there after settling, this will > reduce the amount of base catalyst consumed in neutralizing the acid. > > 3) The eighty mililiters of methanol suggested in the acid stage is > sufficient only for conversion of feedstock up to approximately forty > percent FFAs. It's almost impossible to imagine any WVO coming from a > restaurant that would be that degraded. (If it is, they should be shut > down by the local health department.) But it is theoretically possible. > Oils that degraded or more will require more methanol in the acid stage > and less methanol in the base stage. > > Todd Swearingen > > > Ian & Theresa Sims wrote: > >>Some reassurance please. >>After months of single stage manufacture and reactor modifications I was >>about to jump into the Foolproof method. But now Bob in a, I assume well >>equiped Lab can't get the process to work completely. >>What Gives? How much chance do I have in a back yard with home made and >>jerry rigged equipment. >>Alex Kac also states that mixing methanol and sulphuric acid together is >>can >>cause serious problems. Once again what gives? >> >>Cheers Ian >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 1:42 PM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs >> >> >> >> >>>Appal Energy wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Bob, >>>> >>>>Why not drain the small amount of glycerol that settles out of an >>>>esterification? The majority of the sulfuric will come out with it. That >>>>lessens the amount of base catalyst needed for the follow-up >>>>transesterification. >>>> >>>> >>>again, this is just what I observed: no glycerin settled out after the >>>acid stage. Waiting 8 hours >>>realistically means another day. Additionally, if I do wait and do get >>>some glycerin to settle out >>>with my conditions, wouldn't you think that methanol also would be part >>>of >>>the cocktail, thence >>>affecting the equilibrium? >>> >>> >>> >>>>Fewer chemicals in, fewer problems out. >>>> >>>>Todd Swearingen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>bob allen wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>In my lab I have had little success with the acid/base method for >>>>>biodiesel production. When my >>>>>students and I tried to duplicate the foolproof method >>>>> >>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html >>>>> >>>>>we invariably obtained incomplete reactions, plus the longer >>>>>preparation >>>>>time was less attractive. >>>>>The following is my modification of that procedure which works for us, >>>>>and takes less time, but >>>>>requires more catalyst. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Dissolve 1 ml sulfuric acid in 150 ml methanol and add to 1 liter liter >>>>>dry wvo, heat to about 60 >>>>>Celsius for one hour. Then dissolve 4.9gm NaOH in 50 ml methanol and >>>>>add to the reaction >>>>>mixture. Continue heating for an additional hour, stir for one more >>>>>hour >>>>>and then let set for 8 or >>>>>more hours. workup as usual. >>>>> >>>>>Now for the why more catalyst. Basically the sulfuric acid used >>>>>neutralizes some of the base >>>>>catalyst, hence more must be add to get back to the desired >>>>>concentration >>>>>of catalyst. If you don't >>>>>know moles and equivalents, the following may be abstruse. >>>>> >>>>>1 ml sulfuric acid is 36 milliequivalents, therefore its presence in >>>>>the >>>>>reaction mixture >>>>>neutralizes 36 milliequivalents of NaOH. The simple base catalyzed >>>>>method requires 3.5 grams NaOH >>>>>which is 90 milliequivalents. Subtract 36 from 90 and you get 54 >>>>>milliequivalents of base left. >>>>>This corresponds to to only 2.1 grams NaOH active active catalyst, the >>>>>remainder having been >>>>>converted to Na(2)SO(4), sodium sulfate. In round numbers then you >>>>>have >>>>>to add an additional 1.4 >>>>>grams of NaOH on top of the 3.5 grams called for in the simple >>>>>procedure. >>>>> >>>>>The following instructions are intended for an advanced audience, >>>>>thoroughly familiar with the >>>>>simple procedure. To minimize costs we still do a titration. If the >>>>>wvo >>>>>titrates at greater than >>>>>1.4 ml, we use this modification, less we use the simple procedure. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>All this having be said, I actually use KOH in my procedure but have >>>>>done >>>>>the calculations with >>>>>NaOH, it works either way, one just has to adjust the molar >>>>>proportions. >>>>> >>>>>Acknowledgment should be given to Kelly Verbel and Josh Lisko, students >>>>>who worked with me on this >>>>>part of our biodiesel project. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>> >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>messages): >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>-- >>>Bob Allen >>>http://ozarker.org/bob >>> >>>"Science is what we have learned about how to keep >>>from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>messages): >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>No virus found in this incoming message. >>>Checked by AVG Free Edition. >>>Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.8/215 - Release Date: >>>27/12/2005 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Biofuel mailing list >>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >> >>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>messages): >>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.11/219 - Release Date: 2/01/2006 > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
