Keith Addison wrote: > Hello Chip > > >>Keith Addison wrote: >> >>>Hello Chip >>>>snip
>>>Actually it's the industrialised countries' addiction to wasting >>>energy that's doing that. >> >>Wholly agree, no arguments here. >> >> >>>"Merely replacing fossil fuels is not the answer. A rational and >>>sustainable energy future requires great reductions in energy use >>>(currently mostly waste), great improvements in energy use >>>efficiency, and, most important, decentralisation of supply to the >>>small-scale or farm-scale local-economy level, along with the use of >>>all ready-to-use renewable energy technologies in combination as the >>>local circumstances require." >>> >>>To say the world's 800 million cars will compete for food resources >>>with the 1.2 billion people living on less than $1 a day shows a lack >>>of understanding of how the market works. See eg.: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html >>>Biofuels - Food or Fuel? >> >>No core argument, however, I think that fuel/food competition is >>already happening. > > > But I think it's no different than the usual food competition, with > people being "marginalised" from their own resources to make way for > industrialised production of food and ag commodities for trade in the > global market. Well stated. agreed. > So for instance, with the so-called Green Revolution, > countries that used to be self-sufficient in rice successfully became > rice exporters but with large and growing numbers of poor and hungry > people at home, along with severe environmental problems (which > primarily impact on the poor). Wealth extraction, poverty creation, > same old story. What difference does it make if these extracted > commodities include biofuels feedstock? It just adds fuel miles to > food miles, but it's the same issue. > > Like all industrialised agriculture production it's heavily dependent > on fossil-fuel inputs - dinosaur bone oil, LOL! What sort of sense > does it make to produce allegedly sustainable and renewable biofuels > crops if it depends on exactly the resource it's supposed to be > replacing? There's nothing sustainable about industrialised > agriculture, it has no future. > > >>Currently, dinosaur bone oil costs are mostly >>hidden from view, and bio-oil is under a microscope for cost >>models. >> >>all things being equal, it's my most ignorant guess that once >>you strip away all the huge subsidies that dinosaur bone oil >>receives, add in the health-care costs, you start seeing gas at the pump >>in the 10 to 12 dollar a gallon range, > > > That seems to be quite a good guess, but it's probably more than > that, see below. > > >>and bio-oil is probably >>something like one third to half that. With this in mind, and some of >>the forest-to-farm land conversion that is happening around the world >>to address local fuel needs, > > > Local fuel needs? > > >>and the picture is a bit more cloudy. > > > Adding biofuel to the picture doesn't change it much. > > On the other hand, there's a massive worldwide swing towards > sustainable farming. Eg: Thank goodness! I'm snipping the rest, because I have no debate points, and I completely concurr, and I really appreciate you taking the time to write it all up. Anyone who's following this thread looking for controversy, should go back and read your post in detail :) Thanks again for everything, -keep up the good work! ---chipper _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
