Hey, I just wanted to put in my $.02 about Steve Spence.
I was a member of both "wastewatts" and "12VDC" - both moderated (or owned) by Steve Spence. I invited him to speak at my local section of ASME, of which I chair. He was well received and found to be entertaining by the membership.
Since then, I've become frustrated by the "ceiling" of knowledge one encounters with both of these groups. Steve is a pretty good study and I've seen him accurately regurgitate a lot of technical information. However, don't expect a great deal of theoretical knowledge or analytical abilities when discussing things conceptually.
I finally left both groups after dissenting to another members opinion about deforestation and how he claimed that "there are more trees now than at the founding of this country". I sent a prickly reply that even Todd might be proud of. This mindless debate was on top of already mounting frustration about the group looking more like an extended infomercial for batteries and off-grid appliances.
While others were building shopping lists and pretending they worked for consumer reports, I wanted to conspire with other members and design inverters and AC motor controls (for example). My hopes were that the schematics and other technical details could be published in the public domain and help those who couldn't (or didn't want to) simply buy everything.
What helped expedite my decision was finding out that Steve screens every message then, he explained "This isn't a democracy". He closed with a smug smiley face.
I believe that Steve might be on this list and laying low with an alias. If so, I doubt he will acknowledge any wrong doing.
One final note: Of all the name listed in this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the arrogant behavior of another list owner - Laren Corie. He runs a couple of YG's including "refrigerator alternatives" and a woodgas group.
Mike
I was a member of both "wastewatts" and "12VDC" - both moderated (or owned) by Steve Spence. I invited him to speak at my local section of ASME, of which I chair. He was well received and found to be entertaining by the membership.
Since then, I've become frustrated by the "ceiling" of knowledge one encounters with both of these groups. Steve is a pretty good study and I've seen him accurately regurgitate a lot of technical information. However, don't expect a great deal of theoretical knowledge or analytical abilities when discussing things conceptually.
I finally left both groups after dissenting to another members opinion about deforestation and how he claimed that "there are more trees now than at the founding of this country". I sent a prickly reply that even Todd might be proud of. This mindless debate was on top of already mounting frustration about the group looking more like an extended infomercial for batteries and off-grid appliances.
While others were building shopping lists and pretending they worked for consumer reports, I wanted to conspire with other members and design inverters and AC motor controls (for example). My hopes were that the schematics and other technical details could be published in the public domain and help those who couldn't (or didn't want to) simply buy everything.
What helped expedite my decision was finding out that Steve screens every message then, he explained "This isn't a democracy". He closed with a smug smiley face.
I believe that Steve might be on this list and laying low with an alias. If so, I doubt he will acknowledge any wrong doing.
One final note: Of all the name listed in this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the arrogant behavior of another list owner - Laren Corie. He runs a couple of YG's including "refrigerator alternatives" and a woodgas group.
Mike
Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yo dee ho Keith,
> This offlist stuff these folks do here happens especially
> if anyone mentions Aleks's Foolproof acid-base method,
> they really hate Aleks, though they've never encountered
> him in any way. He's at Journey to Forever but they're not,
> you see. (They hate Todd Swearingen too.)
"Sniffle..., smurf..., snif..., huckhhhh....."
My feelings are oh so hurt.
> As girl Mark and Ginny in Denver so helpfully pointed out,
> forget everything there and start over.
Doh!!! And then the self-appointed expert, at least expert enough as to declare others less than capable - that would be the poor dear Ginny in Denver - just couldn't seem to identify how or where she had fouled up a five gallon batch and started asking for help from anyone who had some insight.
Had she not forgotten everything she had read at JTF (as she's instructed everyone else to do) it's rather doubtful that the dear would have found herself in midst of such a problem without a clue as to how to extract herself.
Oh well. People pick their own poison.
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37170.html
I'd all but forgotten dear Mr. Legge. I still can't forgive myself for outing him (not!) and his nom de plume. Funny that. I don't think he's ever forgiven me either...., sniff..., smurf..., snuffle..., snarf.....
Anyhow, thanks for the stroll down memory lane Keith. A nice, tidy, compressed nutshell of a package of destruction that's really screwed a lot of people that could have been doing a lot of good. Glad you still take some time to check the bilge pumps and make sure the sewage and it's rats don't decimate the entire grassroots biodiesel sector.
Now if you'll forgive me, I'm headed to the pantry for a pint of black and tan and then I'm off to fake another 325 gallons of acid/base biodiesel..., you know..., Aleks' method that "doesn't work."
Todd Swearingen
Keith Addison wrote:
>Please note the bit at the end:
>
>"No further discussion please. As I said, we keep it away unless it
>needs saying, now it's said, so leave it, or it will only cause
>confusion and distraction, as intended."
>
>------
>
>Hello Jason
>
>
>
>>they are discussing the sugar catalyst in detail at
>>http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/9771067631/p/1
>>
>>
>
>Sure they are, but if a person wanders in there the first thing that
>hits them is this:
>
>
>
>>Saint Tilly, DD; KE; Sewer Rat (by appointment)
>>
>>"I didn't have to fiddle with it, it worked just fine,
>>but I fiddled with it anyway and now it works even finer"
>>Keith Addison explaining his cosmic theory of the Foolproof Disaster
>>
>>
>
>With ne'er a link to the original:
>http://snipurl.com/q2lz
>Re: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEs
>
>Nor to this, for instance:
>http://snipurl.com/q210
>[Biofuel] Water from Acid process
>
>And nobody says "er...":
>http://snipurl.com/pie8
>[Biofuel] Biodiesel test results
>
>99.09% completion says the GC, way better than standard spec. So
>what's the disaster? This: "It doesn't work." Uh-huh. But I'll come
>back to that.
>
>This is the barest tip of an iceberg, scratch it a bit and see what happens.
>
>Like what's with the "Sewer Rat (by appointment)" bit?
>
>A couple of days ago some mud got slung at the Biofuel list in a
>discussion at "wastewatts", the yahoo group moderated by Steve
>Spence, Dir., Green Trust. Stuff like this:
>
>"It can have a certain view and the some long time members like
>everyone to march to a similar tune or your read the riot act. "
>
>"The list owner ( Keith ), can not handle the truth, because it hurts to much."
>
>"... plenty of people have been banned because they disagreed with
>certain people on the list, and couldn't back up their disagreement
>with the "proper" sources."
>
>"I would not parrot the "bush is the antichrist" partyline, and I
>wouldn't shut up, so I was banned. But keith will swear that it was
>done in the name of promoting open discussion - how Orwellian."
>
>And so on.
>
>A person named Chris Stratford started ranting that Keith is a racist
>and an anti-Semite and a Nazi and got quite violent: "... if I meet
>them in a dark alley only one of us will walk out... There are a
>bunch of other biodiesel groups, that actually have open debate...
>Keith has a great website, but if it was a choice between saving him
>or the rat from drowning, I will save the rat, and then throw it at
>him."
>
>So this clown at Infopop appoints himself the rat. Well I guess he
>should know, and he's in the right place too. I'm sure the wastewatts
>discussion is all over Infopop with the usual huge glee but I didn't
>bother to check, I never go there unless someone posts a url here.
>
>I received the wastewatts posts as a subscriber but I don't read
>anything there either, someone pointed it out to me. I'd give you the
>link but dear old Steve in all his openness closed the archives
>unless you log in as a member.
>
>These people at wastewatts got booted from the Biofuel list for
>demanding that other people's posts they didn't agree with must be
>censored because they're "off-topic". See the List rules:
>http://snipurl.com/mx7r
>
>People who do this quite often refuse to accept the reason for their
>dismissal, they're already furious anyway and it's so much more
>convenient to think that it's their opinions we "hate" and the
>dismissal was just an excuse while in fact we're really defending the
>evil views they want censored because we agree with them.
>
>This is what happened with Stratford, nearly two years ago. It wasn't
>me who posted the stuff he objected to, I didn't even comment on it,
>and it was just a distraction anyway. But that doesn't bother Chris
>Stratford. He actually said this at wastewatts: "The point is that
>hatred based on lies is evil." Only true thing I've seen him say, but
>he was talking about me and the Biofuel list, not him.
>
>Of course we have all the background on record in the list admin
>archives, so what really happened with all these people isn't just a
>matter of opinion. But it seldom bears much resemblance to what they
>say happened, and the more time passes the more lurid the story gets.
>
>Chris Stratford is an American, he's pro-colonial Zionism, pro-War on
>Terror, pro-Bush. He's not Jewish, he's a Mormon, and apparently he's
>served as a missionary abroad.
>
>Regarding anti-Semitism, this is what the thread he hated at Biofuel led to:
>http://snipurl.com/q22x
>RE: Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel - Keith
>
>Not exactly anti-Semitic. Give it a read, a lot of people said it's worth it.
>
>The strange thing about Stratford is that was the second time he got
>booted, and for the same reason. After the first time, he admitted
>he'd been wrong, begged to be reinstated and promised to behave
>himself:
>
>
>
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: RE: Fwd: FW: Feeling Patriotic?
>>Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2004 10:40:56 -0800
>>
>>I apologize for any comments I made that contributed in any way to a
>>dampening of what topics were being discussed on the biofuel list. If the
>>list owner will deign to reinstate my membership I will refrain from further
>>such conduct, on penalty of banishment. pretty please.
>>
>>
>
>Reluctantly I let him back in.
>
>
>
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: thank you
>>Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:39:01 -0800
>>
>>Thank you very much for allowing me to explain and apologize. Thank you also
>>for giving me a second chance.
>>
>>
>
>And then he did exactly the same thing again. And got the boot again.
>With the results that we see now. He's ranted like this at other
>lists too, not just wastewatts. The guy's a joke.
>
>He also said this at wastewatts: "Anyway, this is too political for
>this group, exactly what I am decrying about Mr. addison's groups."
>
>Case rests.
>
>See:
>http://snipurl.com/pq34
>[Biofuel] A little clarification
>Wed Apr 19 2006
>
>The other one is Greg Harbican, also an American, rightwing, he hates
>Michael Moore and so on, he doesn't really like Bush but he doesn't
>like anybody else either and he disagrees with everyone, even
>himself. He once told someone here who complained about "off-topic
>political BS" that many people see it as relevant to biofuels issues
>and as a result of reading these posts he'd learnt a few things and
>was a little more aware, even if he didn't always agree. But later
>Greg himself complained about all the off-topic political BS. When
>confronted with his earlier statement from the archives he said he
>remembered it but it was "incorrect"!!! He explained that he has a
>bi-polar condition and as a result people have difficulty
>understanding what he means sometimes. LOL! Not that a bi-polar
>condition is funny, but someone who uses it as an excuse for memory
>editing is just being a jerk. We had too many complaints about Greg.
>We put up with him for years but then he posted a mudslinging message
>about the Biofuel list at another list and we removed him from the
>Biofuel list. He knows that's what happened, he even said so. Nothing
>to do with not toeing a "bush is the antichrist" partyline. He's just
>another liar.
>
>Meanwhile, back at the mudstorm at the wastewatts group, in reply to
>the question about oil types that got derailed by the hate stuff,
>someone posted some information from Journey to Forever and a link to
>more of it, to which someone else responded: "Very thorough article.
>Nice find!"
>
>But after all the mudslinging about Nazis and so on the person who'd
>posted the JtF piece asked: "Perhaps someone would like to post
>alternate links to other, more neutral websites and resources for
>biofuel users?"
>
>She was told: "Do try the Infopop forum And look at the biodiesel
>discussion groups there. It is far more relevent and useful that the
>old JTF biofuels peculiar politoco pretensions."
>
>Steve Spence stood back and let it all happen, but then list members
>here have written to him in the past complaining about his stirring
>up slander himself at wastewatts against the Biofuel list. (I advised
>them not to bother.)
>
>Mission accomplished, Steve wagged his finger at everyone and ended
>the topic, but it seems only after the wastewatts list owner called
>him to order.
>
>Steve Spence's father is a rightwing fundamentalist evangelical
>Baptist Christian preacher, and Steve gets his politics from the
>pulpit. He used to be a member here too but he stormed out in fury -
>twice! - because he couldn't take what people were saying about
>Bushco and no WMDs or whatever but he didn't have any
>counter-arguments except that he hated it. He's welcome to think
>whatever he likes but it's a pity he can't be more honest about it
>and stop protesting so loudly after all this time (also two years).
>Not that it matters much.
>
>The official sewer rat at Infopop and some other folks from there
>lurk around here at the Biofuel list archives like, well, like sewer
>rats, sniffing about and telling the same sort of stuff offlist to
>new members and inviting them to Infopop. List members complain about
>it. Here's one, we have quite a few, not only from this one, similar
>stuff from the Appleseed Queen and so on, whose biodiesel book Joe
>Street didn't seem to like much:
>
>
>
>>>Please be aware that the vast majority of the biodiesel world holds
>>>Keith Addison and his Journey to Forever site in total contempt.
>>>Keith Addison is a sick old man who begs for money on his Journey
>>>to Forever site, supposedly to help the poor and needy but he
>>>actually uses the money donated to him for his day to day expenses.
>>>The Journey to Forever site is Keith's "Retirement income",
>>>is vastly out of date, and contains inaccurate and phony biodiesel
>>>information.
>>>
>>>If you are more interested in making biodiesel that listening to a
>>>Psychotic old man rant about the evils of the world, I suggest you
>>>join the Infopop biodiesel website at
>>>http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751
>>>
>>>Tell them a Kindly Elf sent you.
>>>
>>>Squire Tilly KE
>>>
>>>
>
>Here's another one:
>
>
>
>>>>From: "girl Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>To:
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 5:43 AM
>>>>Subject: Biofuel post
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Hi there,
>>>>>
>>>>>I noticed your'e on your way to being yelled at by Keith Addison- this
>>>>>happens occasionally as the man is crazy as a bat.
>>>>>
>>>>>Many things he posts are considered controversial or, quite simply, 'crap'
>>>>>by the rest of the biodiesel world. One such piece of info is the
>>>>>so-called quality test that he linked you to. It's been completely
>>>>>debunked as garbage by everyone else but he continues to defend it. he
>>>>>also used to defend pH testing of biodiesel but now seems to have changed
>>>>>his mind.
>>>>>
>>>>>anyway...
>>>>>
>>>>>you'd be much better off at these otehr forum which are much better at the
>>>>>'scientific method' :
>>>>>
>>>>>http://biodiesel.infopop.cc
>>>>>www.groups.yahoo.com/group/biodieselbasics
>>>>>
>>>>>www.biodieselnow.com
>>>>>
>>>>>Here's a website we're writing, with peer-review of information:
>>>>>
>>>>>www.biodieselcommunity.org
>>>>>
>>>>>take care and good luck!
>>>>>
>>>>>Mark
>>>>>
>>>>>
>
>Her problem, once you blow away all the smoke (it's a LOT of smoke!),
>is that she'd said two things about washing biodiesel that were
>completely contradictory and she refused to explain it.
>
>Her "Bubblewashing 101" article was posted at Journey to Forever, and
>it said this:
>
>
>
>>"The bad news is that poor quality biodiesel can emulsify just from
>>the agitation of bubblewashing. The good news is that it's easy to
>>make good biodiesel. Even with problematic biodiesel, you can
>>predict emulsification in a simple "wash test", take steps to avoid
>>it, and easily fix it if it does happen. The even better news is
>>that bubblewashing emulsification isn't a problem for average
>>well-made homebrew -- you should be able to use even nasty
>>restaurant oil and still easily make fuel that won't emulsify under
>>bubblewash conditions...
>>
>>"Some people use a super-gentle "mist washing" method to take
>>vigorous agitation out of the picture. To me it seems that this
>>masks the real problem -- which isn't agitation, it's poor fuel
>>quality. I'd rather make sure I've produced fuel that contains less
>>soap and less emulsifying monoglycerides and diglycerides (MG and
>>DG), instead of decreasing the agitation to "ease washing". The
>>agitation produced by standard bubblewashing isn't very strong, an
>>average homebrew fuel should be able to handle it without
>>emulsifying."
>>
>>
>
>Then came her Appleseed reactor, which was also at Journey to Forever.
>
>Then Girl Mark answered a question here at the list about washing:
>
>
>
>>either mistwash or bubblewash works fine for big batches, but the same
>>rules apply as for small batches- more water is needed for misting and
>>less emulsification happens, much less water is needed for
>>bubblewashing but more chance of emulsification can take place.
>>
>>I actually use both now- mist for a few gallons (for a small 42 gallon
>>batch I mist for 4 gallons) and then I bubblewash with good use of
>>water recycling during bubblewashing. In my 350 gallon wash tank, my
>>small aquarium air pump gives fine results, but not all of the air
>>pumps might be able to handle such large batches. it looks like a tiny
>>amount of bubbles are rising but it works really well- less
>>emulsification than the same air pump agitating up a smaller batch.
>>
>>
>
>Emulsification with an aquarium air-pump in a 350 gallon wash tank?
>
>That's what the monster smokescreen was about, along with a lot of
>mudslinging, including at other lists.
>
>In spite of the smoke, it emerged that the Appleseed doesn't work too
>well, the pump is too small, the process doesn't complete, you get an
>emulsion. Also the bottom drain plumbing makes separation difficult
>and you'll probably get some by-product in the wash.
>
>But Girl Mark literally wouldn't hear of it, and since it obviously
>wasn't going to get fixed, out went the Appleseed, out went
>Bubblewashing 101, and before long, out went Mark.
>
>Now she hangs around with Tilly at Infopop, fights with Josh Tickell,
>lurks around here, badmouths JtF and flogs her book and her
>Appleseeds and so on - the "Open Source Reactor" she calls it, but it
>doesn't seem to have developed a lot in 18 months, same pump, same
>plumbing.
>http://girlmark.com/
>
>Bubblewashing 101 features at the allegedly peer-reviewed
>www.biodieselcommunity.org now, somewhat watered down, so to speak,
>but it's still completely at odds with what she said here. She
>doesn't say it's easy to make good biodiesel now, but she still says
>emulsions are easily avoided. So why doesn't she avoid them then? So
>much for the "scientific method". Appleseed crappleseed.
>
>This is what she said a couple of years ago:
>
>"Infopop is somewhat dominated by people with a different approach
>than I take - they tend to have an anti-quality control agenda... a
>persistent feud with proponents of journeytoforever's methods (the
>pro-quality camp which I belong to), for reasons that have little to
>do with biodiesel." - Maria "Mark" Alovert, "Biodiesel Homebrew
>Guide", Version 9 - May 8, 2004
>
>This offlist stuff these folks do here happens especially if anyone
>mentions Aleks's Foolproof acid-base method, they really hate Aleks,
>though they've never encountered him in any way. He's at Journey to
>Forever but they're not, you see. (They hate Todd Swearingen too.)
>
>If there's any "Foolproof disaster" to weigh against all the people
>all over the world who use the acid-base method with good results and
>keep telling us about it, including Biofuel list members, it's that
>other people have been put off trying a superior method which uses
>less chemicals and produces less waste by these idiots who don't use
>any acid-base process themselves and spend a lot of time discussing
>super-gentle mist-washing techniques and how to break emulsions at
>some or another branch of the Church of the Uncompleted Reaction.
>
>About the only place where the acid-base method can be discussed
>sensibly without being shouted down by a bunch of noisy hooligans is
>here. It happened again at Anton Berteaux's Burnveggies group
>recently, and there was a wastewatts-style fuss at the Biodiesel
>Yahoo group last week:
>
>
>
>>I started biodiesel investigation on my own by going to Journeys to Forever.
>>As girl Mark and Ginny in Denver so helpfully pointed out, forget everything
>>there and start over.
>>
>>
>
>When someone objected, his post was deleted by the moderator and he
>was told not to make trouble.
>
>It's easy to be destructive, it doesn't take any talent, and it only
>takes one or two people to wreck a good list.
>
>What started all this hate stuff with Tilly at Infopop? Nothing.
>Seriously, nothing. A perceived insult four years ago that nobody
>else could see except Tilly, he got furious and went berserk and it's
>raged on ever since, joined later by the off-topic guys and so on, on
>the basis of my enemy's enemy is my friend.
>
>That makes for some strange bedfellows. The person who did post the
>anti-Zionist stuff Chris Stratford objected to, an obsessed person
>named Luc, who definitely is anti-Semitic, got furious with me when I
>refused to allow him to post any more anti-Jewish crap (and
>anti-feminism crap and anti-gay crap) and stormed out, to join the
>hate group at Infopop, where he hangs out with Girl Mark and so on -
>the very people Stratford recommends if you want a good list with
>open debate. What a bunch of bananas. They really deserve each other.
>
>Tilly the appointed Sewer Rat and his chums also accuse me of being a
>wanted criminal, an international fugitive from justice with warrants
>out for my arrest in five countries, according to Interpol they say,
>of making a fraudulent US$350,000 a year out of JtF donations
=== message truncated ===
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