Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,

 

You said: "What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which "elite" group that take the power."

I respectfully disagree.

Re: Replacing Communism

1.) You can't replace what hasn't existed. If you mean Stalinism, then say it.
2.) Show me where Marx proposes elitism in the manifesto. Communism was A RESPONSE TO elitism and the imbalance of a class society.

Re: Replacing Capitalism - Corporatism and capitalism must coexist. One represents the logical progression of the other and (IMO) can only be quantified since it's existence is a forgone conclusion.

I don't even feel comfortable making a direct comparison between capitalism and any model of government since elements of it exists everywhere. Both capitalism and libertarianism exist in democracies as well as anarchist states (for example). They are elements of a larger scheme.

If Lenin and the Bolsheviks were supported by corporations, it certainly wasn't welcome (unless of course they were willing to redistribute their wealth). Early in the revolution, Trotsky and the Mensheviks may have welcomed that kind of support (although I doubt it) until he joined Lenin and fought together on the same side.

You need to back up your statement with some more information. To my knowledge, there were many events that led to the Russian revolution, like the February 1917 bread riot during a woman's day celebration. The counterinsurgency was fought by the Czar's White Army with troop support from the US. I know of no serious contribution to the Bolsheviks by US corporations. If anything, corporations may have assisted in putting down the revolution by supporting Stalin.


Mike  

 

Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Mike,

Since I think I introduced corporacracy (in greek, corporation power
as opposite to democracy that is people power) on this list and think
it describes well this phenomena. A logical definition of capitalism
is today is better described as corporatism. What I mean is that it
could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and
has always been a question of which "elite" group that take the
power. Interesting that you brought in Stalin in this, maybe he and
Bush are only the two sides of the same coin, in representing a
relatively small groups interests. Lenin by the way, was heavily
supported by the emerging American corporations, who instigated the
Russian revolution.

Hakan


At 14:25 08/05/2006, you wrote:
>Hakan,
>
>"...so also the fight against an illusive communism."
>
>"Illusive" is a good word to describe it, although I prefer to call
>it non-existant?
>
>The confrontation was between the US and an expanding fascist empire
>in Russia. However, calling it "communist" is as deceptive as the so
>called "war on terror", "war on drugs" or "war on...", etc. Either
>way, I think we're on the same page and in my opinion, your
>observation is an important one.
>
>"When the Stalinist bureaucracy arose beginning in the early 1920s,
>Trotsky, who had been the key organizer of the 1917 insurrection and
>who had led the Red Army to victory in the Civil War, became the
>champion of the fight against Stalin. Before his death in 1924,
>Lenin had begun to challenge the rising bureaucracy, which included
>a proposal (suppressed by the central committee after his death) to
>remove Stalin from his position as General Secretary of the party."
>
>http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/543/543_09_Intenationalism.shtml
>
>
>Mike
>
>Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>It goes deeper than short memory and only the Bush machine. Bush is
>only taking unfair advantages of a much large and loner term effort.
>For the Americans the WWII has not yet stopped, so also the fight
>against an illusive communism.
>
>It is a part of the general picture of keeping the Americans happy
>in their belive about heroism and the "good purposes", it is a part
>of empire building. It is not new, the Greeks and Romans understood
>this well, with the gladiator games. They keep us, the public,
>entertained and controllable. The motives and the gains are obscure
>with smoke screen of higher moral values.
>
>AH understood this and voiced many times an envy over the American
>skills. He built his propaganda apparatus with US as the model, he
>was especially impressed by the Hollywood part of it.
>
>Hakan

 

[snip]

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