Keith, After I finished the last email on this issue, I went to take a coffee and turned on CNN.
When CNN came on, I learned that Bush had decided to devaluate the dollar by letting it float downwards without any support. I had no idea about that this was happening, but I had not followed the news for a day or so. It confirms however that our discussions on this issue is very actual and now it is only to see at what level the dollar will stabilize. Fortunes will be lost, mostly by foreigners, and Bush managed to hurt his country once more, but it was long overdue anyway. In reality he make the world pay for his war in Iraq. I had no dollar based assets, but I guess that there are many who are very upset. Hakan At 14:10 31/05/2006, you wrote: >Hi Robert, Hakan > > > You are correct, but there is a belief over here that engaging in > >war is GOOD for the economy, and further, that we're strong enough to > >sustain ongoing warfare. > >There's the kind of economics that can't distinguish between swords >and ploughshares, and the kind that can. The first is a thing of the >past with a hangover, the second is of the future, and the present. > >Eco-economics has been on the table since Maggie Thatcher put it >there by mistake in 1988. It's not going to go away, it's been >gaining ground steadily. > > > It's not just we Americans who need to do this--though we are > >certainly among the most gluttonous energy users on the planet--but the > >entire economic structure upon which society has been built needs > >reconsideration. > >It's a casino, and a casino mentality. The only bit of reality in a >casino is the fact that the game's loaded in favour of the house, but >I don't think the guys who own Las Vegas think you could run the >world that way. Or maybe they do, if it's the Mafia that owns Las >Vegas, considering the grey areas you always find everywhere between >government, big business and organised crime. > >The other bit of reality is that it's sucking up the whole world like >a vacuum cleaner and vanishing it. > >Time for real economics. > >The work of the economist Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen is real economics: > >http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/profiles/georgescu.htm >Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen, 1906-1994 > >There's some of his work here, in the archives: > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30418.html >[biofuel] Energy and Economic Myths >Selections from "Energy and Economic Myths" by Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen > >His inheritors are the ecological economists, Herman Daly, Robert >Costanza, Michael T. Klare, Joshua Farley and many others. > >More: > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg34131.html >[biofuel] From Here to Economy > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30417.html >[biofuel] How Much Is Nature Worth? For You, $33 Trillion > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg34130.html >[biofuel] At What Cost? - Costanza > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg34129.html >[biofuel] The Wealth of Nature > >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg34207.html >Re: [biofuel] The Wealth of Nature > >That's a good read. > >It has to go that way, and it has been doing so, though it's not >centre-screen. It's no more centre-screen that the growth of backyard >biodiesel brewing round the world in the last six years, spreading >like a weed and suitably out of control for several years now, IMHO. > >It's a fair comparison because of what you say about energy. If we're >going to have an economic collapse I think it might be an energy >collapse more than a currency collapse. But I don't think there'll be >an economic collapse. If you can't get yourself in shape for >localised energy production and supply then you're headed for an >economic collapse, but that's your problem, not everyone else's. Not >any more, we're leaving that behind. No room for dinosaurs. > >Even the US army thinks that way these days - they think they'll have >to use localised biofuel and bioenergy sources to fight their wars to >protect the fossil-fuel supplies. A dinosaur trying on some sheep's >clothing. > >The eco-economic view applies to a lot of areas now. Jules Pretty >takes a conservative look at industrialised agriculture in terms of >real cost accounting and it turns out to be costing more than it's >worth. There's no way of putting it in the black, we'll just have to >dump most of it. Pretty also charts a worldwide growth of sustainable >farming, small-scale and local. > >"Food miles" and fuel miles aren't just talk, the days are numbered >for that kind of trade system, with carbon costs hot on its heels, >real carbon costs, not the casino stuff they're playing with now. > >Actually eco-economics does reach centre-screen. It highlights the >"externalisations" of business-as-usual instead of hiding them. A lot >of people started to see things that way after Hurricane Katrina. > >The military's hardly an answer. It can do damage but it can't *win* >anything, it's not a sword at all, just a shovel to dig your own >grave with. And other people's too. It's hard for Americans to see it >that way, it's all been glorified from birth. Glorified to death. > >Best > >Keith > > > > >Hakan Falk wrote: > > > > >Robert, > > > > > >Now we are starting to get somewhere and thank you for posting a > > >good and fuller description of the problem. > > > > > > > You're welcome! > > > > >There are many problems with the US economy, one is the belief that > > >they could export services to balance the lack of production. The markets > > >for US services have failed to materialize. As pointed out, the cost of > > >engaging in war, only worsen the situation. > > > > > > > > > > You are correct, but there is a belief over here that engaging in > >war is GOOD for the economy, and further, that we're strong enough to > >sustain ongoing warfare. I think the devaluation of labor expenses > >through currency degradation in the US serves the interests of large > >corporations who WANT cheap labor from desperate people in order to > >sustain profit margins. Witness the growing disparity between CEO > >salaries and wages for the "average" worker as an example of why > >powerful people are interested in maintaining the status-quo. > > > > The situation WILL get worse, but to what extent and what rate, no > >one can be certain. I'm convinced, however, that the policies we see in > >place now will be continued without respite until the whole thing > >collapses. Too many of us have a rather arrogant view that the world > >cannot exist without our market. We are large, and we seem wealthy, but > >much of that wealth is an illusion. In reality, fewer and fewer people > >are controlling more and more of the world's wealth. > > > > >The article you refer to, describe the situation much better than I do, > > >but also fail to suggest any solution. Other than maybe a meaningful > > >devaluation with the austerity measures that must go with it. > > > > > > > > > > You were right about the situation in Iraq, and you're right that > >our current economic paradigm cannot be sustained. The solution to all > >of this involves the foundation principles guiding discussion on the > >biofuels list. We have to learn how to control our appetites for energy > >and develop patterns of resource use that are locally controlled and > >sustainable. > > > > It's not just we Americans who need to do this--though we are > >certainly among the most gluttonous energy users on the planet--but the > >entire economic structure upon which society has been built needs > >reconsideration. However, there are too many people who don't want to > >limit their appetites, and the ongoing devaluation of labor is perceived > >as "good for business". > > > >robert luis rabello > >"The Edge of Justice" > >Adventure for Your Mind > >http://www.newadventure.ca > > > >Ranger Supercharger Project Page > >http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
