Thanks guys. (BTW i havent stopped by infopop since last time, i read up on some of the equipment they were using, and it was totally non-viable and expensive. way beyond anything i would ever need or want.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 11:02 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions
> Hi Jason > >>i didnt explain my situation as thouroghly as i probably should have. >>this is my problem- I live in an apartment, i cannot store large >>containers >>of chemicals because i have no outbuildings, and the management company >>would not be happy with me if i brought it in the house. >>also, i do not have a supplier of phosphoric acid that sells anything less >>than buckets ( buckets at best, most sell only bulk drums) and the >>majority >>of these i have found do not sell ANY to private buyers, only companies. >>i >>know vinegar can be made privately, that is why i asked, and muriatic acid >>can be had in gallon bottles from the hardware store. >> i am not trying to refine byproducts, i just want mostly clean glycerine >> to >>use in compost, and if i can use, compost, or sell whats left, all the >>better. if i cant realistically, properly get rid of it, ill go back to >>the >>books and try again. as we all know, flexibility is key. > > Flexi-compost. No problem, go ahead with HCl. You can use both the > separated crude glycerin and the salts in the compost, and burn the > FFA. KCl is fine as long as you compost it first. Don't worry about > the phosphorus, it won't be missed. > > See my other posts and the JtF links I posted. Whatever they might do > or not do at Infopop and so on doesn't matter a lot. > > Best > > Keith > > >>jason >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >>Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 7:06 AM >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions >> >> >> >> > Jason & Katie, >> > >> > At the level of home manufacture, about the best you can hope for is to >> > create co-/waste-products that are essentially benign, as the amount of >> > effort and infrastructure needed to refine the side-streams is >> > phenomenal >> > and beyond the reach of the average or above average home brewer. >> > >> > What you need are end products that can be disposed of without threat >> > to >> > the environment. Rather than seeking out the million and one >> > possibilities >> > and options, the suggestion would be to keep it simple. >> > >> > Potassium hydroxide and phosphoric acid are as simple as you can get on >> > the base side and for FFA recovery, with sulfuric acid for the acid >> > pre-treatment of high FFA oils. >> > >> > Other acid and caustic combinations only leave you with less than >> > useful, >> > if not toxic, salts. >> > >> > Todd Swearingen >> > >> > >> > >> > Jason& Katie wrote: >> > >> >> i did some reading at wikipedia, and KCl, being part of the final >> >> product >> >>in splitting crude glycerine(at least with KOH and HCl), is also used >> >>as a >> >>mineral fertilizer, and can be used to cut table salt (theyre about the >> >>same >> >>as far as toxicity goes, and it increases potassium levels and total >> >>electrolytes in the human body, not so bad i think) but it has many >> >>other >> >>uses in the medical world as antidotes to some poisons, and for food >> >>preparation(probably a preservative,yeech). is this an acceptible >> >>byproduct >> >>or should i keep looking? >> >>----- Original Message ----- >> >>From: "Thomas Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >> >>Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 7:21 AM >> >>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more goofy questions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>Jason & Katie, >> >>> I'm not sure what you mean when you say "clean the glycerine for >> >>>compost". >> >>> Many people compost the glycerine cocktail w/o any treatment. I >> >>> think >> >>>this is best done when KOH is used as the caustic rather than NaOH. >> >>> I do separate the glycerine because I produce quite a bit of BD >> >>>these >> >>>days. I'm concerned about pouring Kilo after Kilo of caustic, of >> >>>which >> >>>70%, >> >>>by weight, is Potassium. Sure it's a valuable soil nutrient, but I'd >> >>>like >> >>>to >> >>>control how much is added to my garden .... which has done just fine >> >>>on >> >>>pre-BD compost. I also am attempting to recover methanol and have uses >> >>>for >> >>>the other components of the mix. >> >>> >> >>> I used hydrochloric acid (sold in hardware stores as "muriatic >> >>> acid") >> >>>before I was able to locate phosphoric. >> >>>I did a few small test batches and got good separation. >> >>>The difference will be the type of mineral "salt" that will >> >>>precipitate >> >>>out. >> >>>Ex: >> >>>Hydrochloric Acid + Lye (NaOH) forms table salt and water >> >>>HCl + NaOH ----> NaCL (table salt) + H2O >> >>>The table salt is not especially valuable; throw it out? >> >>> >> >>> The salt falls to the bottom and you get FFAs forming a layer on >> >>> top >> >>>and >> >>>the crude glycerine (+ most of the excess methanol) forming a bottom >> >>>layer. >> >>>The FFAs and the glycerine/methanol are composed of Cs, Hs, and Os. >> >>>They will decompose into CO2 and H2O. They supply nothing in the way >> >>>of >> >>>soil >> >>>nutrients, but I have found that >> >>>they appear to accelerate decomposition within a compost pile >> >>>....... >> >>>not >> >>>only a safe way to dispose of the mix, but some benefit to be gotten. >> >>> >> >>>KOH (during processing) and H3PO4 (split) >> >>>is preferred because the salt produced is Potassium Phosphate ..... >> >>>valuable as fertilizer. >> >>> >> >>> The point is that different acids can be used to split the >> >>> cocktail >> >>>into FFAs and crude glycerine w. methanol. The >> >>>difference is in the salt (and its value) that is produced. >> >>> >> >>> Vinegar is an organic acid, which tend to be weak acids. It would >> >>> take >> >>>a lot of vinegar to split the cocktail. >> >>>Probably more expensive than hydrochloric and I don't see that the >> >>>salt >> >>>produced would have more value. >> >>> >> >>>***By value I don't mean financial, as in sell for profit. I >> >>>dissolve some of the potassium phosphate produced by the split in >> >>>water >> >>>and >> >>>add it to my compost piles. It has value as in ... can be put to >> >>>good >> >>>use. >> >>> >> >>> Sorry to get so wordy, but your "goofy question" is part of a >> >>>subject >> >>>that is of great interest to me. >> >>> The splitting of the cocktail may not have the financial payoff >> >>> that >> >>>brewing BD does, but the feeling of putting to good use what others >> >>>have >> >>>called "waste products" is akin to the feeling I get when I fill the >> >>>tank(s) w. BD I brewed at home. >> >>> Best of luck to you, >> >>> Tom >> >>> >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >> >>>From: "Jason& Katie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >>>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> >> >>>Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:13 AM >> >>>Subject: [Biofuel] more goofy questions >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>>>what other, more available acids can be used in place of phosphoric >> >>>>to >> >>>>clean >> >>>>glycerine for compost? i have been reading for three hours, and i >> >>>>cant >> >>>>find >> >>>>any experiments or documentation. am i not looking in the right >> >>>>places? >> >>>>has >> >>>>anyone tried using vinegar? this is really bothering me. any ideas? > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.0/353 - Release Date: 5/31/2006 > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
